FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #2

[krait]

Welcome to chapters 1 & 2!

Commence discussion, now that we've met our Actual Protagonist(s?) for this trip!

1. Impressions of Bren so far? (If you can make such quick judgments on only two chapters?)

2. Thoughts about or observations on what we've suddenly been introduced to regarding the aiji's court and (now technologically further advanced) atevi society? Unlike Ian, Bren's right in the middle of it; what stands out to him, what stands out to you, and how much overlap is there? :D


======================

Regarding spoilers: how far along is everyone? I've read either all, or all but one, book; someone mentioned they were only as far as the third book; and I think one of us has never read any Cherryh before...? So far I've been trying to avoid spoilers for absolutely everything beyond our current reading point, so the "Spoiler Edition" post will follow this one.

Comments

and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[cheyinka]

As far as spoilers go, I've read the whole series, but I am really bad at remembering what happens when in a long series of books; doing it with only what has been 'officially' read so far makes it easier not to accidentally spoil later books.

---

The first thing I noticed is that Bren is using the atevi word for the clicking bird or lizard or whatever (o'oi-ana); either the humans adopted the word, or he doesn't use the human word.

Next, of course, is the description of firing a pistol - it always delights me when that's done accurately. It also means that they're definitely more technologically advanced than M.'s time; a pistol that can just be pulled out from under a mattress and fired is not something that a culture that sees any advanced machine as clockwork is likely to produce.

Bren is obviously familiar with Banichi and Jago, but he's also afraid of them, and he clearly has no guards of his own, or the habit of keeping door-sized windows closed and locked at night, despite living somewhere that assassins are common - "Assassins, he understood; but that any ordinary assassin should come into the residential compound [...] nobody in their right mind would do that." Despite the whole, you know, living around assassins thing, he doesn't seem like he's normally afraid of things.

In the next section there's television, and servants bringing breakfast - which was dissonant then (not as much now - see my comment on the spoiler post) because, you know, modern handgun, television... servants as a matter of course? It's not even that they're the people who bring everyone on the garden court breakfast, because Bren thinks of them as his servants.

It made me wonder whether humans had servants, too; it seems strange for a culture with space-level technology to have them as a matter of course, and of course even if it was bizarre to Bren before, he's been the paidhi for a while, but it was another "this is an alien culture" moment for me.

Bren's pretty comfortable with walking right up to Tabini-aiji's chair, and Tabini's clearly comfortable enough with him to joke with him - not only is Bren enough of a presence that those who are normally at court don't take his alien-ness as noteworthy, he's got some kind of real relationship with Tabini. (I mean, if Tabini taking him shooting and giving him an illegal gun wasn't a sign of that already.)

He's comfortable enough as "the paidhi" that he doodles during the energy council meeting - though possibly that's because he can't speak in the meeting unless invited to do so (!). He's apparently very interested in making sure that the aiji of the Ragi stays in power and that the system doesn't become decentralized, which strikes me as weird and possibly a bad idea (why are humans preventing atevi from developing a less-centralized society? just so that humans don't get wiped out?)

On the other hand, he's still uncomfortable with atevi having man'chi instead of personal relationships, and repeatedly fails to interact 'normally' with Jago - on the other hand, she doesn't scare him like Banichi does, and he's not afraid of accidentally offending her.

As far as the rest of atevi society goes, apparently an armed society is a polite society, because there's one jail and four "labor-prisons" for three hundred million atevi, none of which seem overcrowded. Assassins must be licensed, and intent must be filed before an individual assassination is attempted. You have to "file on" someone before attempting to kill them. Tabini thought it was acceptable, though not the best course of action, for a woman to "register a feud" with her ex-husband.

And! It looks like the first paidhi was Ian - Bren remembers him as Bretano, but it seems like it'd be the same guy, even though that was 20+ years after first contact.

More commentary is at the spoiler post.

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[krait]

either the humans adopted the word, or he doesn't use the human word

Perhaps humans don't have that nonbird on their island? It could just be a mainland species... Do we have any real indication how far from the mainland Mospheira is? *thinks*



And! It looks like the first paidhi was Ian - Bren remembers him as Bretano, but it seems like it'd be the same guy, even though that was 20+ years after first contact.

That makes me both astoundingly happy -- go, Ian! Use your awesome first-contact-making atevi interaction skills! Use your connexions Manadgi probably brought you to, and make peace for everyone! -- and sad -- poor Ian! Probably feeling all forlorn and betrayed, and maybe worried about Manadgi, and thinking maybe somehow it's your fault and you thought you'd had something real built up, and it's all falling down around you without warning!

seriously where is my ian-n-manadgi novel, ms cherryh? i need it like burning! even more so now that there's Significant Plot involved!

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[cheyinka]

Yessssss. Or even a Ian-'n'-Manadgi short story. I would be appeased by a short story. I mean, it would be sad and we'd know it'd take a long time for there to be the kind of atevi-human understanding that he clearly hoped there would be, with that first handshake, but... Ian! Manadgi! Delectable tea!

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[krait]

it'd take a long time for there to be the kind of atevi-human understanding that he clearly hoped there would be, with that first handshake, but... Ian! Manadgi! Delectable tea!

Heehee, sometimes I think the real reason I love this series so much is because of the all the tea!

Sci-fi usually runs on coffee.

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[pebblerocker]

Yay, confirmed that the first human to make contact was ALSO the first paidhi! He would have had a head-start on learning the language. Though trained linguists listening to his first conversations would have had a better starting point than a biologist, assuming the ship had anyone interested in languages, which isn't a given.

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[cheyinka]

I replied to this on the spoiler post. Non-spoilery: yes, I think Ian's initial experience with Manadgi and the village to which Manadgi took them would have been a huge head-start - no doubt that's why he ended up the first paidhi. (It's possible nobody else wanted the job, too...)

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[blnchflr]

Lol at your Subject line :oD

because, you know, modern handgun, television... servants as a matter of course?
This threw me, too - am off to see what you say in the spoiler post about it!

Re: and on that farm there was a o'oi-ana, e i e i o

[cheyinka]

With a click-click here and a click-click there, here a click, there a click, everywhere a click-click... :D

Thoughts so far!

[krait]

Things that stood out to me while reading:

1. Humans apparently are just as pacifistic as they were during Ian's time? Ian's thinking that the colony had pretty much nothing to pursue him with except some things designed to repel animals, and his complete lack of armament in the field (where presumably there might be animals) are an interesting mirror of Bren's general unfamiliarity with guns -- he's only had one for the last two weeks, and the aiji taught him to shoot, meaning it's not something he knew how to do before then. Which I suppose one could attribute to his not being legally allowed to have a firearm amongst atevi; but he doesn't have any stray thoughts about human marksmen he has known, or refer to hunting in any way (in fact, we find out humans are ordering packed meat from somewhere else, annoying the aiji); and the comment about "marksmanship was a hobby among atevi" seems pretty focused -- no "and some humans" in sight. Huh.

2. That said: I know little about shooting, but Bren came across as pretty awesome in those first few pages! From a sound sleep, based on a silhouette at night, he had the presence of mind to locate, aim, and fire a gun he's only had for a fortnight! Accurately enough to wound, too. I would guess most people take a lot longer to get used to something as a reflex; i.e. if I started keeping a gun beside my bed today and you suddenly woke me up a week later, I don't know that I would think to reach for the gun, not instinctively at least.

3. That sudden, initial competence is contrasted pretty sharply by everything that follows: no one will answer in any detail about an attempt on his own life; the aiji never warned him about potential attacks*; he has no vote or even voice in the legislature; he has very little "presence" in the court as a whole ('no one would want to kill him' ... except 'a lunatic') and lives in some out-of-the-way apartment near the servants' quarters; his servants are reassigned at random over his protests. And he has even less power amongst his own species than he does in atevi society. It's really strongly setting us up for SOMETHING, because why would this powerless person, however quick-reacting and linguistically gifted, have assassins climbing in his bedroom windows?

-----------
*Honestly, the way this whole thing was phrased made me think we're being shown very strongly that Bren is naive/still not on perfect form recognising atevi behaviours.

And a handful of weeks ago Tabini had found unprecedented whimsy in arming him and giving him two hours of personal instruction at his personal retreat. They had joked, and shot melons on poles, and had supper together, and Tabini had had all the time he could possibly want to warn him if something was coming up

Arming someone in complete violation of your own law isn't a warning? The leader of a large and complex nation, whose personal attention is needed for just about everything that goes on, takes two whole weeks of vacation to give Bren gun training, and that's not a warning?

Re: Thoughts so far!

[cheyinka]

Yeah, he's definitely pretty awesome in the reacting-with-firearms department, especially with deafening himself with the first shot and having the presence of mind to follow it up with a second! (I do not know that I could do it, even awake and alert, and I've had almost four years of occasional practice with a handgun!) It makes me think Bren's only really competent when he's purely reacting - that he knows what to do as long as he gets out of his own way, but the only time he can get out of his own way is if he is shocked into action.

You have a good point about Bren not picking up on the non-verbal warnings, too. Tabini-aiji takes him with him on vacation, specifically teaches him how to shoot, specifically teaches him how to shoot reactive targets and how to shoot from concealment*, and Bren takes it as a sign of favor, not as "hey, you might need these skills soon, just saying".

I have to wonder, re: humans not hunting, why they don't raise animals. Even if atevi find it non-kabiu to farm, humans are already offending some of the atevi by using preserved meats, and if they were raising animals on Mospheira they'd at least not be relying on non-Ragi for food!


* "cover" means it will stop a bullet, "concealment" means it hides you from view; the bed is concealment, not cover.

Re: Thoughts so far!

[krait]

he's definitely pretty awesome in the reacting-with-firearms department

Thanks for that explanation -- nice to have some more informed input than my own guesses, since my experience with handguns is near nonexistent.

Interesting point about Bren's competence coming strongest when he's purely reacting! He really is, isn't he... And then he spends the rest of the night thinking and shaking; and then he spends the next day thinking and getting angry and confused.

He does seem to put it together afterward, though, about Tabini: "Tabini had felt something in the wind, and armed him", he thinks while daydreaming through his meeting on transport. And he seems to know that the problem with the mail isn't adding up, either, even if he doesn't acknowledge it directly; when Banichi doesn't answer his radio call from Jago, Bren thinks that "the matter of the mail diminished in importance, but not, he feared, significance".

Plus, despite falling over his feet verbally and upsetting or insulting Jago at every other sentence, he's able to read her when she's inviting touch afterward...

re: humans not hunting, why they don't raise animals

I thought about this, and my best guess is that the island is mostly mountains: Bren goes skiing, back home, and (does a two-paragraph spoiler count?) remembers the "white beaches of Mospheira, and tall mountains" ... and we're told that the atevi of the island who gave up their lands for the humans got "much richer" land from the aiji's coastal estates -- so maybe Mospheira's pretty much all mountainous?

In which case they probably raise chickens (or the nearest atevi equivalent) and small, hardy meat animals like rabbits or goats, but if you want a good steak or something beyond the basic poultry-or-rabbit option you've got to either do extensive, un-kabiu land-carving to produce pasture or silage, and we've just seen the aiji ojbect to something as (relatively) minor as buying un-kabiu meat from those willing to sell it... In which case, I doubt he'd tolerate bulldozing the mountains to make cow pastures. :D

----------
Hey, that's neat: I never knew there was a difference between cover and concealment! Awesome. I will Use The Right Words Like A Smart Person from now on!

Re: Thoughts so far!

[cheyinka]

I think you're right about Mospheira being either beaches or mountains; that makes a lot of sense why they wouldn't have herds, especially if the local animals can't be domesticated or won't stay put in relatively small areas.

Re: Thoughts so far!

[pebblerocker]

He certainly did well to react so quickly! Of course he does better than you or I would, knowing he's in a society where everyone has a gun and nobody comes in without knocking, ever -- I don't live alone, so if someone comes into my room at night it's likely to be someone I'd hate to shoot, and even if it's someone I don't know who has bad intent, they'll likely be after my TV and won't kill me as a first resort, very different from assassins.

The more experienced paidhi of later books would certainly see the shooting lessons as a direct warning without needing anything verbal in addition. But even now he's felt uneasy and wondering if there's any meaning behind the sudden extra security around the aiji and the lessons coming at the same time.

[spaceoperadiva]

I've read all but the final book. But it's been a while so I've forgotten stuff. I'll be reading along in the spoilerized versions too since theoretically I should know what's going to happen. :)

[blnchflr]

(Life is busy and stuff - will return Sunday with comments!)

[pebblerocker]

I got behind (already!) but I'm back on track now.

Something I didn't understand at all, and I don't know if it's because it wasn't explained clearly enough for me, or if I just missed information, or what: Why does Bren feel it "like a slap in the face" when Banichi says "We failed you tonight"? Clearly he's having a strong emotion but I can't tell where it's coming from, though it's tied to his throwing up. Is it that he's upset that Banichi and Jago let him down? Is it a sudden realisation that someone he trusted and looked up to is only "human"? Is he just embarrassed about having thrown up in front of Banichi, and/or thinking that Banichi wouldn't have spewed in reaction to the first time his life was threatened? It seems like a vital point of characterisation has gone right over my head.

I liked the scenery and scene-setting of the Bu-javid and the petitioners coming up the hill, their clothes and flowers and the stacks of papers with their ribbons and seals still an important ceremonial tradition despite computer records and the inconvenience of storing them. All very atmospheric!

[cheyinka]

I think he feels it as patronizing; Bren shoots (at) someone, is told by Banichi to lie that it had been Banichi who "discharged the gun", throws up in reaction, and Banichi tells him that he was brave - like a nurse telling a little boy who only cried a little bit at a shot that he was very brave, maybe?

[krait]

I read it as being mainly Bren's overemotional state -- He's just woken in panic, shot at a person for the first time, missed the target, and reacted like a total n00b, complete with throwing up and shaking and not being able to keep his mind running straight (he doesn't get why Banichi tells him to wash his hands, or claims the gun, till later)...

Banichi walks in completely calm and professional, and stands there watching him throw up (and, likely, emoting all over the place, not able to keep his face straight like politeness requires) and not able to think his way through things in order to help his staff. And then Banichi says the failure is his/Bren is brave?

To Bren, it probably felt like Banichi was rubbing salt in the wound of how he's NOT coping at the moment. Plus a probably very common human resentment of someone who's not getting emotional while you can't help but being so; least it reminded me rather a lot of how I feel when I start crying in front of somebody. D:

(I am one of those people who can't keep from crying! Sometimes it doesn't even start till half a minute after whatever hurt/angered me; but I can't lock it down and turn it off the way some people do. So I stand there sniffling and feeling horribly embarrassed that I can't control it like a grownup, and wishing that the grownup witnessing this was anywhere else so they wouldn't be STARING at me while I fail at being calm and rational.) Or, as cheyinka says, patronising -- like Banichi doesn't expect a human to act like a grownup, because Bren can't possibly be as rational/useful/reliable as an ateva in situations where Banichi's under pressure and could use some backup. (Rereading, I notice he keeps re-instructing Bren regarding the "say that I fired" thing; I think he's noticed Bren isn't tracking well, and he seems a little bit nervous, on top of hiss security-related tension, about the whole the paidhi had a hidden contraband gun thing!)


======
Also, quite possibly, atevi don't have such severe reactions to violence; at least not by the time they're adults, so Banichi may just be baffled and not sure what to say. Atevi seem... well, if you're as far as chapter 6, (some spoilerish speculation on atevi and aggression reactions) over on the Spoiler Post.

[krait]

Heehee, I love the archives and their beribboned documents and crush-the-palace voluminousness. :D It's one of those things that makes me want to like the atevi (and really like them, in the worldbuilding sense) -- their paperwork is just as massive as a human bureaucracy, but so much prettier and more personal. Not just piles of printouts in manila folders; they have ribbons and seals and this whole different way of viewing paperwork and official-ness.

ribbons and wax and seals, oh my

[cheyinka]

The whole paperwork and ribbons and seals thing has inspired me to make a metroid-wax-seal image (not an actual Metroid signet):

Re: ribbons and wax and seals, oh my

[krait]

Heehee, that's awesome! I have a weakness for signet rings, definitely. :D

Man, something about Foreigner really makes me crafty, too -- I have two and a half versions of message cylinders lying about, and a vague urge to make Ragi-coloured pots for spider plants, and then tonight I started contemplating the merits of making "ribbons from the paidhi" (of the sort Bren hands out to the tour guests), and possibly framing them...

Re: ribbons and wax and seals, oh my

[cheyinka]

I think it's the... handcrafted nature of so much of the atevi world, at least at its upper levels? One gets the impression that nothing in Malguri except the gaslights came out of a factory of any sort, even if that's not actually the case. And then one looks around at one's own house, and at least in my case, realizes how little is handcrafted...

At one point, and I can't say it wasn't partially influenced by these books, I responded to an invitation "properly" (for American humans) rather than using the provided response card. The bride's mother called my mother to ask whether I would be coming alone or with my husband, because I hadn't sent back the response card and so she didn't know what my response meant. I was... amused and sad at the same time.