FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #3, Spoiler Edition

[krait]

If you have discussion points for Chapters 3-4 you wish to bring up but which include spoilers, please post them here. Then link your comment in the general post, so those who want to avoid being spoiled can do so!

Comments

[cheyinka]

I liked that he was afraid of Ilisidi even before he left Shejidan - really set a nice tone for their first meeting. It makes me wonder if the only atevi Bren can relate to are the ones who frighten him on some level...

On the "he's still a baby paidhi" front, when he thinks of his two original servants he thinks "he liked them, even if they probably wouldn't understand that idea," rather than "he liked them, even though that was a human emotion" or the like.

Do we ever hear of the Nisebi again? It's not ringing any bells, and it seems we've only encountered the cultures more traditionalist than the Ragi - the Edi and the whatever Ilisidi is, the "East" I guess.

Do we ever hear of the Malguri-area residents speaking a different language than Ragi, either? I don't remember that at all, but Maigi and Djinana are either intentionally excluding Bren or that got dropped when Bren started spending a lot of time around Ilisidi et al.

It struck me as interesting that despite being somewhere no human had ever been, Bren isn't worried that supper will accidentally poison him. Or breakfast, or lunch. It's not until Cenedi gives him a cup of tea that he worries. (And apparently children are warned against taking and touching things from strangers, which makes sense, except then Cajeiri will muse that minor children were totally off-limits in feuding, many books from now...)

[krait]

it seems we've only encountered the cultures more traditionalist than the Ragi

Well, there's the whoever-they-are (forget the name, but it had three syllables) who don't object to preserved meats. (Wait: was that the Nisebi?)

And are the Edi really so traditional? All I remember about them is that through some quirk of history they don't have many aijiin of their own; their overlords tend to be Maschi or other ethnicities, which causes some tension. Lord Geigi's lot seem to get along with him pretty well, though, and he's hosting humans and rather space-positive/progressive, as I recall.

I don't know if we ever hear anything about languages specifically, but it makes sense that the East would speak a different language (or probably several) than the Ragi, since they don't seem to have any historic links to the Ragi/the West. (Ilisidi's little breeding project suggests that she's the first to really straddle the border with a hand held out to each side -- mostly, Malguri was just there to keep the East from invading, rather than associate with thim, or so Bren's history lesson there implied.) One would presume that those who wish to poke their noses in politics would have to learn Ragi, though, given the importance of the aishidi'tat.

children are warned against taking or touching thigns from strangers, which makes sense, except then Cajeiri will muse that minor children were totally off-limits in feuding

I hadn't recalled that! You have a superior memory. :D That's funny; wonder if it's a recent development, or if Cajeiri being offworld for two years influenced that? After all, Bren protests that a professional Assassin would surely have filed before attempting his rooms, and is told that there are always people who don't follow the rules...

And maybe there are situations that don't count as feuding. (Such as offing your sibling in order to inherit; or to prevent their forming an association you distrust!)

It struck me as interesting that despite being somewhere no human had ever been, Bren isn't worried that supper will accidentally poison him. Or breakfast, or lunch.

Do you think maybe he's starting to trust "his" servants already, despite their being new? Being in a strange new place might make them seem more familiar/trustworthy by comparison with the rumoured-dangerous dowager. Or maybe he thinks Banichi and Jago are supervising ALL things to do with the paidhi? (If so, I think he's right.)

[cheyinka]

Yeah, the atevi who don't object to preserving meat are the Nisebi. The Edi struck me as really traditional mostly because they were ruled by the incredibly elderly Grandmother of the Edi, they were only really willing to talk to Ilisidi as "Grandmother of the East" (I am pretty sure that's how they referred to her), and, well, they're country folks. It could be a misinterpretation on my part! :)

It does make sense that the East would speak a different language, but we just don't encounter them speaking non-Ragi ever again, as far as I remember! I'm thinking especially of Deliverer and Ilisidi and Bren's visit to Drien - if Drien could have excluded Bren by speaking in a different dialect, I have no doubt she'd have tried doing so. I think we get hints that the Edi might speak Edi, but we don't hear anything about the East speaking... Easti.

& Cajeiri's musing about minors being off-limits was while he was in the dungeon cell in Deliverer - it's a very "I'm a MINOR! They can't do this to me! Killing my dad would have made me very mad, but at least that would have been kabiu!" moment. There's also a moment in one of the books later than Deliverer where something happens to a child (I don't remember what, as I don't own any books past Deliverer) and everyone's angry because you just don't do that. So it was weird that Bren would think about kids being warned "don't eat any candy a stranger gives you" if "everybody knows" you don't harm kids. (I mean, obviously, there's the generic stranger-danger stuff, but Bren's thinking it in the context of "atevi poison other atevi, it's what they do", isn't he?)

[krait]

Huh!

Wonder if Cherryh changed her mind on that, or was trying to "humanise" the atevi somewhat as the series runs on? Because that does sound odd when contrasted with their strict policy of teach-'em-paranoia-while-they're-young!

(I can see that, no matter whether it's group or alone, I'm going to have to keep up the re-read through the whole series! Can't believe I could have forgotten something like that, coming from Cajeiri. Sheesh.)

[spaceoperadiva]

The poisonous tea is one of my favorite scenes from the whole series. Bren knows better than to eat or drink strange things without careful inquiry, but he's so tired/disoriented he simply isn't thinking well and the consequences for that can be pretty dire. Ilisidi is one of my favorite characters, and this whole mistaken tea thing is a wicked and wonderful introduction.

Bren does seem disconnected from human society, but one supposes that's a hazard of his job, both in training and in execution. It would take a special kind of personality to want to go live alone among a foreign species, and Bren himself muses on the hazards of getting too disconnected from humanity based on the effect on previous padhi.

I want to live in this castle. Not for the gilt covered everything, but for the stone castle next to the lake and the mists and the rain and the mecheiti.

[cheyinka]

Yeah, Bren's been going on hardly any sleep for days, and he's clearly intimidated by Ilisidi - not that she didn't intend to intimidate him, of course.

I don't know if I want to live in Malguri, but I'd happily spend a week there, for exactly those reasons.

[krait]

One begins to wonder if atevi have lower sleep requirements than humans do -- Banichi and Jago seem to be doing fine, despite running around madly installing security features and before that running around madly searching for clues. :D Maybe there's something in their coffee, like ultra-caffeine for atevi only. :D

I confess: if I had better aptitude for math, I'd be fighting Bren for the chance to be paidhi! And I'd die of envy when I found out he got to go to Malguri. (Less envious if I heard about The Tea Incident, though...)

Hey, I'd have to be better than Hanks, right?

[cheyinka]

Given that they think of alkaloid stimulants as a pleasing zing in their tea, they probably do run more amped up than a human would, though I don't know whether that should mean they need to sleep more deeply or not. Hmm.

[krait]

Well, since they have a larger body mass, it probably would take more stimulant to keep them going than it would a human -- one cup of tea might be the same, equivalently, for each species (one human-size cup of black tea = one atevi-size cup of atevi tea, in terms of mg of stimulant substance per pound of body weight)?

Some of their tea blends seem to be herbal (drunk solely for the taste, or for some other medicinal benefit than stimulation), though. And it's mentioned when they're headed off-planet that atevi actually need some alkaloids to live, so they probably metabolise them in different ways -- humans could definitely live without caffeine, so it seems a lot of the compounds in atevi foods and drinks are, even if tasty, probably doing something more -- or less -- than raising blood pressure.

Now I'm really curious how much biology Cherryh has in her background! This is all fascinating speculation to a bio-geek like me! (I totally want to be the paidhi... but I'd settle with only slight disappointment for being Ian's research partner who handles the animals/pollinators while he studies the plants/pollen!)

whether that should mean they need to sleep more deeply

Ooooh, there's a thought! Maybe they sleep for less time, but more, erm, intensely? REM-type state as soon as they drop below consciousness, perhaps with a shorter cycle (say, an hour)?

Wonder if Security gets lessons in things like taking one-hour naps while standing up in a corridor, so your partner can spell you and you don't have to go off-duty? (I keep thinking of Sam Vimes and his "policeman's sleep" in doorways, etc.)

[cheyinka]

I bet they must get lessons like that, even if they don't sleep more deeply / more heavily / more intensely / more somethingly. It seems like it'd make sense, if the base unit of a personal guard is four persons, and it's normally two on, two off, but sometimes all four go...

Spoiler for the most recent book in the series:

[cheyinka]

So we know Tabini isn't putting Bren somewhere safe while he wrecks Mospheira; it wouldn't make sense to do it out of fondness, and if he's planning on wrecking Mospheira, why would he need a paidhi?

On the other hand...

[spoiler]


The office of 'paidhi' predated humanity; it was an emissary from one lord to another, who would negotiate on his lord's behalf but also try to act in the foreign lord's interest as well. Since Bren is clearly pretty good at being a human-atevi paidhi, it's not impossible that Tabini would have wanted to use him as a paidhi to another lord, especially since, as a human, he would be obviously completely neutral.

[end spoiler]