FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #2, Spoiler Edition

[krait]

If you have discussion points for Chapters 1-2 you wish to bring up but which include spoilers, please post them here. Then link your comment in the general post, so those who want to avoid being spoiled can do so!

Comments

[cheyinka]

Right now (Ch. 1 & 2) he reminds me a lot of Tully, from the Chanur books, if Tully could speak hani without a machine translator.

It also really amused me to read about Bren dressing himself and braiding his own hair, when in not that many books he's going to sit and let someone do all of that even when there's a rush for time!

Also, either Bren is wrong or Cherryh changed her mind about how prevalent Assassins would be - Bren thinks that "Banichi, unlike the majority of the aiji's guards, had a license," and ISTM from later books that unless Tabini had a lot of guards (dozens), most of them would be Assassins. On the other hand, when Tabini announces his Intent, he specifically names which Assassin he will authorize to carry out the, uh, intent, so to speak, so maybe licensing is more a matter of being someone who acts publicly as an Assassin?

[krait]

Bren dressing himself and braiding his own hair

I noticed that, too -- I hadn't quite remembered if he could braid his own hair adequately! :D Even funnier when I think that he's braiding his own hair and dressing himself, but just been informed he's going to be changing his own sheets... and compare that to his eventual position. Heh.

either Bren is wrong or Cherryh changed her mind

I made a little "!" by that in my copy. I suspect that Bren is just naive -- even in book 5 or whatever, remember how he's surprised when Banichi says the head of Damiri's staff was Guild? So either Bren's just naive, or Cherryh changed her mind and is cleverly covering that by implying Bren's naivete... :D

Given that comment by Banichi, it seems that pretty much everyone in the Guild knows each other, or at least those at the top know each other (presumably anyone high enough to be employed in the Bujavid is familiar with others in that ranking)...

[krait]

Oh, regarding the don't-let-them-decentralise thing: I think it's because of how atevi borders (or lack of them) work? I.e. it would allow separate areas to get strong enough to challenge the aiji, which could bring the whole Western Association/human treaty down around their ears... and, yes, is against the human desire to keep the economy under Tabini and driving firmly toward spaceflight.

They -- or perhaps just Bren -- does seem to have at least some genuine concern for not repeating the problems of Earth's 21st century, too; Bren thinks of human records of human development on Mospheira, which "suggested, with the wisdom of hindsight, that consuming the planet's petrochemicals in a vast orgy of private transport wasn't the best long-range choice for the environment or the quality of life" and takes pride in the fact that "atevi had made enormous advances, and the air above the Bergid range still sparkled".

[cheyinka]

Undoubtedly it helps the air quality that there have never been nuclear weapons detonated in it, among other things! Still, "we know better than you do what technology you should have and what your society should look like" makes me a little itchy - sure, there's no real option to let the atevi develop technology independently, since the humans are right there, but even just in human history sometimes a false start becomes really useful a few decades later, or a primarily militaristic technology has peaceful benefits. Then there's the whole "we will make the Ragi aiji totally solid and never going anywhere" thing - the East has functioned for centuries with one aiji being at best first among equals, and if it weren't for the humans wanting to get back to space ASAP that might be a better society. There's also "heretics" who believe everyone has (or should have, I'm fuzzy on the details) man'chi to everyone else and atevi society might be "better" if that viewpoint spread, even though that probably would make borders even more fluid and overlapping. (Or it might be worse - but with society forcibly centralized under a Ragi aiji, how is anyone to find out?)

[krait]

Yep. And Bren does mention that, despite human efforts, atevi 1. still invent things on their own, and 2. take human tech in very unexpected directions ... and that the more tech they get, the more often that's going to happen. No wonder his superiors are a little edgy about the closing of the technological gap!

Those 'heretics' have spawned some fan discussion somewhere before; people were pretty excited at the idea that there might be an atevi subgroup whose interactions were much closer to humans. (Arguable, for certain humans -- e.g. the party on Mospheira who wants to just massacre them all, whom I'm not exactly thrilled to share a species name with. I'd rather Banichi than the Humans First party.)

With society forcibly centralized under a Ragi aiji

One of the things I really liked about the later books was the way some of the ethnic divides amongst atevi come into play -- I felt it made the atevi much more, well, likely? believable? Anyway, yes -- Lord Geigi being a Maschi overlord whose demesne is mostly Edi was interesting and made me wonder a bit how things might have turned out if, say, the coastal people hadn't delayed so long on first contact that Manadgi's aiji pushed in first...

[cheyinka]

I dunno how much closer to humans they are - sure, they might feel man'chi for everyone, but I always read it more like they were humans who thought humans should feel brotherly affection for every other human - "So you have man'chi to the aiji? Even lunatics have that. I say to you, have man'chi for those who despise you and act stupidly." or something. :D

[krait]

like they were humans who thought humans should feel brotherly affection for every other human

Well, but while that might not be universal, it is human, isn't it? :D Whereas the Ragi and their neighbours seem to feel basic 'affection'/loyalty/fellowship only with those who have the same man'chi, the way we see with Jago and Banichi... They feel no compunction about attacking someone with clearly opposing man'chi, nothing like what Bren feels after wounding an unknown assailant in defence of his own life.

Granted, though, we're seeing security staff at those invasions, so maybe they get training the way human militaries do regarding killing? Do we ever get any inforrmation on what joining/being part of the Guild entails?

Heh, now I wonder: how does one become an assassin? Do Assassin parents go to their child's Career Dayy and explain the exciting satisfaction of hunting down targets for one's contractor, after the other parents have extolled the virtues of growing (not)wheat or fixing train engines? :D Does the Guild have a recruitment centre in the major cities, in an effort to collect likely young college-age pupils? Are there posters? Slogans, like the U.S. and its "Be All You Can Be" advertising?

Hmm, come to think of it: Army Of One? Applies to the Guild much better than it does to the U.S. Army! (AHAHAHAHA, SOMEOME WHO CAN DRAW: DRAW THAT RECRUITMENT POSTER, PLEASE!)

[cheyinka]

But it should be an Army of Two, shouldn't it, since Assassins work in pairs? Of course, two is an infelicitous number...

We do get some hints of it in Deliverer and the two books after that, as Cajeiri's Taiben associates start preparing to learn how to be proper security staff.

What I mean about the man'chi-to-everyone thing is that as it stands right now, atevi can rationalize human behavior by saying that, okay, they don't say they feel man'chi, but they respect the treaty with Tabini-aiji and his predecessors, so that's close enough - but if atevi society did the have-man'chi-to-everyone thing, there'd be atevi trying to get humans to do, I guess, "individual treaties", rather than just being linked to the aiji, and that'd go pretty badly, since we just don't feel that emotion.

[cheyinka]

Recruitment poster idea:

some lord with one bodyguard and a dotted outline on the lord's other side - "The Guild wants YOU to make this group a felicitous number!"

[krait]

Ahahahaha, that is brilliant and hilarious and perfect! *gigglesnort* How I wish I could draw! Or even do manips!

[cheyinka]

Me too. Though, if the cover of Foreigner had an ateva in Bren's place, one of the two atevi behind him could be turned into a dotted outline...

[blnchflr]

when in not that many books he's going to sit and let someone do all of that even when there's a rush for time!
*Facepalm*!

[cheyinka]

Yeah, there's a lot of perspective changes ahead for Bren!

[krait]

One other thing that my rereading perspective gave me:

4. Bren's still a baby at this job in a lot of ways -- seems uncomfortably perched between humans and atevi. He's not at all comfortable with atevi violence, security, assassination, lack of convenience food, or -- sometimes -- manners (he lets his face show his emotions, he gets snappy/impolite when tired, ). On the other hand, he uses atevi vocabulary unconsciously (he mentions reading the junk mail he gets as being a chance to think in English), isn't uncomfortable with servants, has done years of work to reach this position, which is definitely no sinecure: Bren mentions "studying and competing for years to be the paidhi, and becoming, in sum, fluent in a language in which human words and human thought didn't neatly translate", so we know his skill level and talents are out of the usual already.

And he's not surefooted on the human side, either -- he's dangerously close, I felt, to considering Tabini a friend after their little outing in the countryside, and he's willing to keep his own superiors in the dark regarding some actions/requests of Tabini's... and even refrains from telling them about his current situation until it's too late...

[cheyinka]

It's been really dissonant to read after just reading the last three novels, I gotta say - he goes from baby paidhi to Lord of the Heavens and I'm pretty sure it's a nice, gradual change (having Jase around undoubtedly helped a lot) but it's still really jarring to go back to the beginning.

And, yeah, it might have been wise for him to let his Mospheiran superiors at least know that Intent was filed on his behalf, even if they did then say it was time for him to have a vacation. (Do we ever learn what Mospheira means? Is it somebody's name? Is it the atevi name of the island?)

[krait]

jarring to go back to the beginning

I know! There are these flashes of the brilliant, patient diplomat of the most recent trilogy... and then there's these sequences of a blundering n00b who can't hold a conversation with his own guard without offending her and insulting the staff.

(This is not to say that I don't love salad the n00b! I just find myself gnashing my teeth and thinking, Pull it together, Bren-ji! You can do this! before reminding myself that he actually hasn't done this before.) :D

Hahaha, Jase! Jase probably helped mostly by giving us someone to look at and say, "Wow, at least Bren isn't doing that!" Come to think, maybe it worked that way for the atevi, too! "Bren-ji must be a good paidhi -- he's never had a tantrum and refused to speak Ragi, and he somehow manages to live with Jase-ji and not file Intent once a week! He must be a very polite and reasonable human!" Wonder what they thought of Deana Hanks...

ever learn what Mospheira means?

I think it's the atevi name for the island? At least, I think I remember Manadgi thinking of it by that name? It looks like an atevi word, rather... Don't think anyone ever has a discussion about the name, though.

[cheyinka]

pebblerocker commented on the non-spoiler post that "trained linguists listening to [Ian Bretano's] first conversations would have had a better starting point than a biologist, assuming the ship had anyone interested in languages, which isn't a given."

Taylor's Children knew about the atevi, right? I know they were trained to be super-polyglots because of linguistic drift between the ship-humans and the Mospheirans, and I know in Book 2 we find out that at least part of the reason for the Guild opposing the landings was the existence of an intelligent indigenous species, but I don't know whether there were already linguists. ISTM there might not have been, meaning Ian might really have been the best suited for the job!

[krait]

That's very interesting! Given the Guild's official position was "You can't go to the planet, we don't want you on the planet, and we'll throw every excuse in the book at you to keep you from reaching the planet" -- they well may not have had dedicated linguists!

In which case, well, a botanist probably knows enough Latin to name his new discoveries, and Bretano did have the widest experience with atevi, so why not throw him at the problem? He has the oldest associations, and he's managed to get along despite language barriers once before, so he's probably no worse and likely better than anyone else they could find. :D

Even after the stationers went down to the planet - the shipfolk wouldn't have known that (they come back expecting their station to still be up and running!), and if they didn't have linguists before they left again, they might not have re-introduced the concept afterward. (Out of sight, out of mind; and they wouldn't be intending to talk to any other aliens they happened across in their explorations, so they wouldn't see a need.)

Jase sort of made it sound like it was something Taylor had invented, if my memory helps -- sort of, "he knew there were atevi, so he made us study a bunch of old Earth languages, despite the whole ship speaking one language"?

[cheyinka]

That matches what I remember, yes - that it was Taylor's idea, and that Jase and the other one whose name eludes me were unusual for learning so many languages. That suggests to me that Ian was the best choice, even if it wasn't the case that he was the only one willing to take the job.

continued from Post #2

[krait]

SPOILERS for later in Foreigner; this comment is part of this thread about Chapter 1.

Bren mentions during the ride with the dowager that atevi can be reckless when testing a new arrival in a group; Bren even calls it a "aggressive" impulse, and suggests that they're undisturbed by pushing those tests to near-deadly levels. Which suggests to me that, in some situations at least, even an average, non-Security ateva is more comfortable with the implications of violence than Bren/an average human, and may not understand the strength of his reaction to the attempt on his life.

(Although what reeeeeally intrigued me was the mention of Tabini's court -- and Tabini -- doing exactly that "testing" on Bren when he first arrived! Creepy and no little disturbing, but I'm still curious about how Bren managed it and what it added to his character!)

Re: continued from Post #2

[cheyinka]

Wait a minute. Maybe this won't be borne out by the context of that ride with the dowager, but, is the implication that sometimes atevi do things like, "If you follow $generic_aiji, then you are one of my fellow-followers-of-$generic_aiji; if that is true then you should trust me not to do anything against $generic_aiji; thus I will try to scare the shit out of you and see what happens"?

Because if that's the case...

...was the scene with the intruder staged?

Were the aiji's guards trying to see whether Bren would trust them to defend him against an intruder? But by reacting as he did, he showed that he didn't trust them to do so, and thus, they failed at being guards?

Re: continued from Post #2

[krait]

... O.o

I like the way your mind works! :D I'm a little afraid of how it works, too, but I admire it!

That is a really interesting thought, especially when you consider Banichi saying that Bren {having to defend himself} was a failure on the part of his security, and Banichi's tension over the next day.

Add in that Banichi and Jago didn't know -- hadn't been informed by their aiji -- that Bren was armed, and, well. Even if it wasn't staged, I think everyone involved underwent a major adjustment in understanding of his or her position in the association/hierarchy! (Doesn't Tabini look at Banichi rather consideringly when Bren says Banichi told him to lie about whose gun was fired? So even Tabini has learnt something new about the various lines of man'chi involved!)

Bren probably did not help matters at all by intently quizzing Jago on her man'chi to both Tabini and Banichi, come to think of it! Wow, Bren. Everyone's feeling the shift of man'chi all around them (except you), and you go probing into deeply personal levels of loyalty with someone you've barely met? No wonder Jago was so touchy and upset...

Re: continued from Post #2

[cheyinka]

This will be my fourth time through the first book, so it's not that I normally think that way, but something about the way you phrased the "testing" summary made something go "click!" in my head.

I'm still not sure whether I think it really was staged or not. If it was, it's a little odd that no one ever admits it and Bren never realizes it, but then again, he was so sleep-deprived that he probably doesn't remember a lot of details from that night!