Meta Meme: Topic By Tadashi_chan
Feb. 28th, 2011 09:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kraitHer prompt:
Since I know you like Loveless, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject of Ritsuka and Soubi's relationship. It doesn't have to be exclusively about the 'romantic' aspect, per se, just the relationship in general (which kinda goes hand-in-hand with romance, I suppose).
First, let me note that my Loveless fannish experience is based solely the manga; I have never seen the anime, which I understand makes changes to some scenes I may quote here. I think I'll divide this into the past, present*, and future, as I see them. [*Another note: I have not read most of Volume 9, so "present" will be a bit out of date right now.]
Past
The relationship between Soubi and Ritsuka begins with Seimei: he assigned Soubi to find and "love" Ritsuka after his death, and Soubi is emotionally clueless enough to believe that love can be commanded. Thus he "loves" Ritsuka as he understands the word, and he expresses it via protection and rebellion: I suspect this is exactly how his relationship with Seimei began. Protectively, he fights other Fighter/Sacrifice teams for Ritsuka, conceals his injuries from Ritsuka, and attempts to create a bond between them by both physical affection -- kissing, etc. -- and general interaction, not differentiating between sexual and friendly love because he was never taught such things. Rebelliously, he occasionally lies to Ritsuka, and attempts to manipulate him, including trying to manipulate him into an emotional bond and into conforming to the behaviour of a Sacrifice as he was taught it: hence the "give me orders" and "treat me like an object" statements. (Which may have a bit of rebellion behind them, too -- if he knows Ritsuka is uncomfortable with such inequality, he might be trying to create an opposite reaction by pushing it too hard.)
So, the past of the relationship is based partly on deceit (Soubi's motives are somewhat suspect), and partly on genuine need -- Soubi needs a Master (or thinks he does) and a Sacrifice (he's one of the best Fighters, so clearly he takes pride in what he does), and is unable to connect emotionally to anyone else; Kio is too far outside his world, though he tries; the Zeros abandoned him when their trainer called; and the "girls" he mentions to Kio are clearly even further from his understanding even than Kio. Ritsuka needs a connexion to his brother and an outside source of stability -- he clearly recognises that when his mother has snapped, Soubi is the only one he dares to call or involve.
Present
They're getting better. Ritsuka has discovered Soubi's weirdnesses regarding love and past role under Seimei, and is not afraid to tell an "adult" that what he experienced was wrong! (One can only hope this will eventually spill over into his own relationship with his mother, another adult whose actions/beliefs are wrong and need to be opposed...) Soubi is, I think, also coming to truly love Ritsuka in some sense, or at least to recognise that an emotional bond doesn't need to involve molestation: there haven't been any kisses for several volumes, now! Which is what drives me to believe that the love between them isn't really sexual; it's that Soubi doesn't understand the boundaries and Ritsuka is too traumatised by other things in his life to explain them to him. Soubi is seeking any emotional closeness that will strengthen their Fighter/Sacrifice bond... and now Ritsuka has deliberately chosen that bond, in pretty symbolic/significant circumstances: in front of other students of the school he was taught in, where the bond is a tangible, visibl thing and no one can claim Ritsuka wasn't aware of what he was doing or what it meant.
Future
I am horrible at predictions, so I'm not going to say what I think KY will do with the relationship! All I can offer are the various paths I think it could go. Firstly, Soubi has tried to say "no" to Seimei, the god of his former existence! I think this is a huge breakthrough, and due in part to Ritsuka's influence! Perhaps, once Soubi has really "grown up" to match his physical age, he'll be able to mentor Ritsuka in turn, assuming Ritsuka still needs it; if nothing else, he'll always be the one who went through 'all that crazy Seimei stuff' with him, which no one else will know about -- an additional bond, in addition to the insider-feeling Soubi himself faces, alone in a world that doesn't seem to know anything about what he is or does. Secondly, it's possible the relationship will redevelop sexual expressions; they're certainly alone enough in the world now, bound together by the aforementioned insider-ness and Seimei-related history as well as their Fighter/Sacrifice bond and, one hopes, the eventual defeat of both their personal tormentors (Seimei and Misaki). Thirdly, even if they don't go that way (I, uh, hope they do, though, because I am an unrepentant slasher!), I suspect that short of the death of one they'll always be close, each the brother or teacher that the other never had. I really don't think KY would write nine-plus volumes and then let them split up and never see each other again! Though I could see them deciding on a period of separation, to encourage growth or for necessary reasons (the law after them for killing Seimei? Ritsuka going to University, or taking a distant job?)...
So,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
tadashi_chan, how was that? (Aside from long!) If you still want something narrowed down, feel free to ask! I could go on forever about these two; they have so many facets and interlocking (and conflicting) angles. :D
Since I know you like Loveless, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject of Ritsuka and Soubi's relationship. It doesn't have to be exclusively about the 'romantic' aspect, per se, just the relationship in general (which kinda goes hand-in-hand with romance, I suppose).
First, let me note that my Loveless fannish experience is based solely the manga; I have never seen the anime, which I understand makes changes to some scenes I may quote here. I think I'll divide this into the past, present*, and future, as I see them. [*Another note: I have not read most of Volume 9, so "present" will be a bit out of date right now.]
Past
The relationship between Soubi and Ritsuka begins with Seimei: he assigned Soubi to find and "love" Ritsuka after his death, and Soubi is emotionally clueless enough to believe that love can be commanded. Thus he "loves" Ritsuka as he understands the word, and he expresses it via protection and rebellion: I suspect this is exactly how his relationship with Seimei began. Protectively, he fights other Fighter/Sacrifice teams for Ritsuka, conceals his injuries from Ritsuka, and attempts to create a bond between them by both physical affection -- kissing, etc. -- and general interaction, not differentiating between sexual and friendly love because he was never taught such things. Rebelliously, he occasionally lies to Ritsuka, and attempts to manipulate him, including trying to manipulate him into an emotional bond and into conforming to the behaviour of a Sacrifice as he was taught it: hence the "give me orders" and "treat me like an object" statements. (Which may have a bit of rebellion behind them, too -- if he knows Ritsuka is uncomfortable with such inequality, he might be trying to create an opposite reaction by pushing it too hard.)
So, the past of the relationship is based partly on deceit (Soubi's motives are somewhat suspect), and partly on genuine need -- Soubi needs a Master (or thinks he does) and a Sacrifice (he's one of the best Fighters, so clearly he takes pride in what he does), and is unable to connect emotionally to anyone else; Kio is too far outside his world, though he tries; the Zeros abandoned him when their trainer called; and the "girls" he mentions to Kio are clearly even further from his understanding even than Kio. Ritsuka needs a connexion to his brother and an outside source of stability -- he clearly recognises that when his mother has snapped, Soubi is the only one he dares to call or involve.
Present
They're getting better. Ritsuka has discovered Soubi's weirdnesses regarding love and past role under Seimei, and is not afraid to tell an "adult" that what he experienced was wrong! (One can only hope this will eventually spill over into his own relationship with his mother, another adult whose actions/beliefs are wrong and need to be opposed...) Soubi is, I think, also coming to truly love Ritsuka in some sense, or at least to recognise that an emotional bond doesn't need to involve molestation: there haven't been any kisses for several volumes, now! Which is what drives me to believe that the love between them isn't really sexual; it's that Soubi doesn't understand the boundaries and Ritsuka is too traumatised by other things in his life to explain them to him. Soubi is seeking any emotional closeness that will strengthen their Fighter/Sacrifice bond... and now Ritsuka has deliberately chosen that bond, in pretty symbolic/significant circumstances: in front of other students of the school he was taught in, where the bond is a tangible, visibl thing and no one can claim Ritsuka wasn't aware of what he was doing or what it meant.
Future
I am horrible at predictions, so I'm not going to say what I think KY will do with the relationship! All I can offer are the various paths I think it could go. Firstly, Soubi has tried to say "no" to Seimei, the god of his former existence! I think this is a huge breakthrough, and due in part to Ritsuka's influence! Perhaps, once Soubi has really "grown up" to match his physical age, he'll be able to mentor Ritsuka in turn, assuming Ritsuka still needs it; if nothing else, he'll always be the one who went through 'all that crazy Seimei stuff' with him, which no one else will know about -- an additional bond, in addition to the insider-feeling Soubi himself faces, alone in a world that doesn't seem to know anything about what he is or does. Secondly, it's possible the relationship will redevelop sexual expressions; they're certainly alone enough in the world now, bound together by the aforementioned insider-ness and Seimei-related history as well as their Fighter/Sacrifice bond and, one hopes, the eventual defeat of both their personal tormentors (Seimei and Misaki). Thirdly, even if they don't go that way (I, uh, hope they do, though, because I am an unrepentant slasher!), I suspect that short of the death of one they'll always be close, each the brother or teacher that the other never had. I really don't think KY would write nine-plus volumes and then let them split up and never see each other again! Though I could see them deciding on a period of separation, to encourage growth or for necessary reasons (the law after them for killing Seimei? Ritsuka going to University, or taking a distant job?)...
So,
tadashi_chan, how was that? (Aside from long!) If you still want something narrowed down, feel free to ask! I could go on forever about these two; they have so many facets and interlocking (and conflicting) angles. :D![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Part 1/2
Date: 2011-03-01 04:51 am (UTC)including trying to manipulate him into an emotional bond
THANK YOU! Geez! I think some of the fans interpret Soubi as "actually trying to bond with Ritsuka", but all I see is straight up manipulation. Or, at the very least, he could be trying to start something genuine but really going the wrong way about it, since manipulation tactics are all he knows (ie: manipulating words to form spells).
Soubi's motives are somewhat suspect
I don't think Soubi can ever be disentangled from Seimei, really. Look at how it came to be that Soubi and Ritsuka met. And we still don't have clarity (in volume 7, anyway) that Soubi is acting of his own accord. I seem to recall one instance in which Ritsuka grilled Soubi about whether Seimei's been manipulating him (still) or not. Hell, even if Seimei is killed (for real this time), I don't think Soubi will ever be free from Seimei's influence. And neither will Ritsuka really. This is why these poor boys are totally f***ed. These are scars - mental, emotional, physical, hell, possibly even sexual - that they will never get over.
I think, also coming to truly love Ritsuka in some sense, or at least to recognise that an emotional bond doesn't need to involve molestation
Part the first: that ear-piercing incident is the most vivid memory I have of them "bonding". They did an episode of that in the anime (episode 3 or 4, I think), and it really struck a chord with me. I also recall Soubi saying, "I could never have known that I'd come to love him so much." Very early on, considering the progress we've made, but I like to think that we can adapt that expression to fit any situation they're in, really.
Part the second: I am, for one, glad about the lack of molestation. They're finally getting some boundaries, here, and it's really getting to be more of an emotional connection rather than... basically, forced pedophilia. (Side note: no waaaaay! Spellcheck doesn't recognize the word 'pedophilia'! XD)
I am horrible at predictions
God, me too. Also, I giggled when you said "what KY will do". I thought you meant the popular lube company, not... Koga Yun.
Moving swiftly on.
Soubi saying no to Seimei: It might destroy him emotionally, at least partially, but I absolutely agree that it will do wonders for him. Perfect time would've been when Ritsuka ordered Soubi to prevent Seimei from leaving and Soubi did nothing. But he wasn't ready. There needs to be more development. I don't even know what it should be! I could say we need an "impossible choice" situation... but the backlash would probably cause more regret and actually hinder emotional growth than anything.
Re: Part 1/2
Date: 2011-03-02 03:45 am (UTC)All the "love" he's ever received turned out to be manipulation, and then there's the fact that partnering Ritsuka is itself part of an order he's been given, which quite likely means "to be accomplished by any means necessary, and without regard for the consequences to either you or the target". So faced with an order to "love" (and protect/bond with as Fighter) an unknown person, he goes with what he knows of love, but he goes at it in the same way he'd approach any other order, i.e. from every angle and with no holds barred.
I giggled when you said "what KY will do".
Trust me, I did that on purpose. That was how I remembered her name back when I first entered fandom! (I kept mixing it up and muttering, "Yun Kouga? Kun Youga?" and then I realised: slash needs lube, and there
isshould be slash in this series, so it must be Kun Youga, i.e. KY! And I had no more trouble remembering.) :DRe: Part 1/2
Date: 2011-03-02 04:17 am (UTC)The ear-piercing scene is particularly squick-inducing for me, handily combining in perfect trifecta my Molestation Senses Tingling, needle phobia, and manipulation (in the sense that Soubi's incorporating a masochistic/sexual/"claiming"/bonding overtone to the proceedings that Ritsuka doesn't fully understand) squick. Extremely powerful, and extremely uneasy-making; an unforgettable and resonant combination. No wonder this fandom's story seems to be, "Come for the dirtywrong shouta, stay for the characters and worldbuilding!" :D
I really love the little signs all through the manga that Soubi's love-on-command is turning into a genuine emotion, and the ways he's realising it and being surprised by the difference. :D