sorry, it's time for cranky!Krait again.

[krait]

So.

This week I keep running into people on Tumblr ~*~lamenting~*~ how Tumblr is so hard to have fannish conversations on, how the old LJ/webring/whatever days were so much more interconnected, how much harder it is to find stuff or keep stuff on Tumblr, how it's harder to control who sees what and thus some stuff has to go unsaid, how deeply they wish they could tell people "I liked that" or "I feel that way, too" and talk to people like they used to...

and they're posting this on Tumblr.

IF YOU MISS THE INTERACTION SO MUCH, POST TO YOUR BLEEDIN' INTERACTIVE SITE OF CHOICE!

Ahem. Sorry 'bout that. But it really does drive me up the wall; I want to shout at them, "The power is within your grasp!" Crying about it on the very platform guaranteed not to open a meaningful dialogue about it suggests to me that you don't actually want those things, you just... I dunno, actually. Want to feel sad for a while, and any cause will do? Want to brag about how Experienced In Fandom you are? Are having a bout of I'm old and nobody understands and couldn't resist whining?

Why would you complain (in some posters' cases, deeply and comprehensively) about how hard it is to do fandom now that it's (partly) on Tumblr, and then proceed to ignore any of the ways you could fight the shift/help the parts that aren't there?

Nobody says you have to pick Just One Place to be fannish in! Crossposting is a thing that can happen. For that matter, use one as a simple alert system for the other -- remember how we used to do fake LJ-cuts for outside links? Yeah. Post somewhere that allows for discussion, and then make some fake Read-Mores on your Tumblr that link to your LJ, or whatever you use! If your Tumblr posts are generally short, do a "daily roundup", ML digest style, to consolidate them in one DW post.

There are tonnes of ways to be interactive, not just whatever it was you used Back When Everything Was Great. But if all you do is use the "most popular" option, then you should stop complaining about it -- you're part of why The Ways We Used Before aren't as active, and it makes you look disingenuous at best.


NB: Yes, I really am done complaining now. I really appreciate all of the people who don't do this sort of thing, y'know -- thank you, all of you who continue to use other platforms for fannishness because you prefer that communication style! People who know what they want and refuse to follow the crowd when it makes them unhappy are people I'm happy to read and squee with. ♥

NB2: The fake-readmores thing is something I've been vaguely considering doing with my own DW for a while now, actually! Anybody with more familiarity with Tumblr want to chime in with whether this seems feasible? (I know I post infrequently; would I be seen at all, or would I be swept away in the jetstream too quickly?)

Comments

[soc_puppet]

*round of applause*

[cathexys]

Great post!

OTOH, I'm just as puzzled by the folks who talk about how much they LOVE Tumblr's ability to communicate. Like, I get Tumblr users praising its visual or reblogging qualities. But conversation?

Then again, I'm old and cranky :)

[krait]

...They what now? What's that about?

......Maybe they mean, "because anyone can click a tag and find ALL THE POSTS with that tag, it's so much easier for people I don't know to find my post (and then "like" it)" ? I mean, that doesn't really count as communicating by my standards, but presumably Tumblr users have different definitions. :D

Us old and cranky fen have to stick together. *highfives*

[odditycollector]

I've always thought the "fake-readmores" thing - formatted to look like a real one, as opposed to an obvious link serving the same purpose - is disingenuous, because it takes readers to a site they weren't expecting.

I know it didn't make me think fondly of anyone, when it was in fashion on LJ.

[soc_puppet]

I also had a bit of trouble with that, but only because I used it for fanfic and to gauge how many reviews a certain fic had. It was difficult to tell when the fic itself (and most of the comments) were in an entirely different place.

Something I saw later in use was the labeled fake cut. It would say "Fake cut to my journal" or something. I thought that was a decent compromise; it still looked like a real cut, but told you where it was going, or at least that it wasn't necessarily leading where you might otherwise think. Any thoughts on that part of the phenomenon?

[odditycollector]

Any thoughts on that part of the phenomenon?

Well, as long as they weren't actively trying to rickroll me to their journal, whatever makes them happy.

It was more amusing to me than anything? (At least it seems that way now, in retrospect.) Like, you could see how we'd got there.

1. Someone wonders if they'd get more follow through to their journal by formatting a link like an LJ cut.

2. Other people: I guess this is how links are supposed to be formatted?

3. Complaints from people annoyed at being mislead by fake-cuts start circulating.

4. Oh no, messing with the audience's expected behaviour of things that look like LJ cuts isn't *actually* the point, better put in a "follow the fake cut!" warning (but still format them like fake-cuts because. Because? See #2??)

5. Now let's not even format them like cuts anymore, just have bare links with "follow the fake cut to my journal!" warnings attached.

Number 5 is my favourite because of all the different confusions that have to go into it all at once.

I'll admit I started bolding links more, at around the fake-cut trend. I agree the bare ones aren't very eye-catching.

[krait]

Pretty much all of the fake cuts I saw in use either were described as such in the preceding text, or (much more commonly) in the text of the link itself.

(Follow the fake cut to read!)

*edit* YEsssss, I still remember how to do that! :D

[krait]

Hmm.

All the ones I saw were generally proceeded by "follow the fake cut" or similar text, so I never really thought of it as disingenuous.

Nor, I guess, do I really see any objection to linking someone to something that they want, even if it's on a different site than they were "expecting" -- barring, of course, malicious links, but then, that's not 'something they want', so. *shrug* Can you clarify what's objectionable about it from your perspective?

[odditycollector]

If I see a "Read More" formatted and placed in a tumblr post in a specific way, the implied promise of that link is that it will take me to a page on the user's *tumblr* blog. This is my expectation based on every other such link I have come across.

If it takes me somewhere else, this does not match my expectation and is not where I agreed to let your link take me by clicking on it. "But it's the same thing that *would* have been on my tumblr post!" Doesn't matter, you still broke our "click here to go to my tumblr post" deal and tricked me. Now I trust *you* less AND the tumblr readmore system less.

If you want to go the "Follow the fake readmore: Read More" route that's... not objectionable, but it is kind of silly?

OTOH "Read More at my DW" or etc. that declares itself a link to elsewhere (with nothing to prove) is no problem. Unless you're worried people won't click it because they don't want to leave tumblr, I mean, but then tricking people *is* the goal.

[krait]

If I see a "Read More" formatted and placed in a tumblr post in a specific way, the implied promise of that link is that it will take me to a page on the user's *tumblr* blog.

I... guess I kinda see that? Maybe? *shrug* Not really, though; I guess content is more of a focus for me -- I don't have any objection to leaving a website (or to visiting a specific one*), so it's still just kind of... okay? Take me to your fic, wherever you have chosen to host it. I am not invested in the idea of its being anywhere in particular, aside from the basics of "not harbouring malicious software" and "not requiring me to pay", so beyond huh, I don't think we're on Tumblr anymore, Toto I don't quite "feel" why it would be a bad thing. (Since "trick" in this context is generally understood to mean a bad sort of trick.)

(Frankly, if it's fic that I'm clicking on, I'm hoping for Not Tumblr, because Tumblr is anathema to the idea of permalinks; in three months they'll have deleted the Tumblr, changed its name six times, deleted the post, or otherwised monkeyed around with it so that I can't access it or even see the author's name in order to track it down elsewhere. Dear Authors: if your fic is good, we would like to read it, not just now, but six months from now!)

I guess I see the fake cut / read more as more of a shorthand, e.g. "that's how we say 'click this' in this town, so I'm helpfully cueing you on how to get what you want" rather than "I am trying to persuade you that what you want is right here". Hmm! It took me a while to pin this down in words, which tells me that the internet does fascinating things to concepts of communication! :D

I know Tumblr has a way to make outside links, but they show up as post titles, and I have a hard time recognising them as links when they're formatted that way! I think it's a really weird way to do that. (I mean, on HOW many other sites does clicking the post title take you to an outside site, rather than to the long form or permalink form of the post itself?) I either can't figure out where to click to get to the fic, or else I click on the title in an attempt to "read more" and find that the page is changing before I've finished reading the rec! Which isn't, like, traumatic or anything, just amusing and sometimes irksome if I haven't finished reading the summary and thus miss something that kills my interest.

Chalk this one up as another point on "Tumblr users have different expectations and definitions," I guess. :D

go the "Follow the fake readmore: Read More" route

Quick query: this seems to imply that Tumblr does not allow users to alter the text of the ReadMore link; am I interpreting this correctly? If so: bummer! And more than ever I'm beginning to see why Tumblr users are always complaining that its designers have something against functionality...

"Read More at my DW" or etc. that declares itself a link to elsewhere (with nothing to prove)

This seems to be the best compromise between deceptive/impossible due to Tumblr's limitations (if applicable) and "potentially confusing format that makes the link hard to find".

Bonus: it's probably the way that requires the least effort, too. :D

---------
*except, perhaps, John Ringo's personal blog

[unsettledink]

This may be sort of random, but here's an example of why someone would be angry about a fake 'read more' on tumblr (someone = me, ha). If I use infinite scroll, on my connection I have to be careful and watch my meter, or I'll scroll too far, load too many images, and lose my internet access for the rest of the day. (I hate my internet provider.) Say i've scrolled down about 10 pages worth and I come across a 'read more'. I click it, expecting it to expand right there - and it does not. It takes me to another site, and bam - everything I loaded at tumblr is gone. If I click the back button, it doesn't take me to the point at which I was reading, it takes me all the way back to the beginning of those ten pages, and if I want to continue from where I was, I have to rescroll and reload all those pages worth of images, something that will likely put me over my limit for the day.

That puts me in a foul mood, and after a couple instances of that, I'm eyeing those 'read more's with some deep suspicion. If I knew it was a link, I'd just open it in another tag, but formatting something to look exactly like something it's not? I shouldn't have to be a suspicious bastard that checks everything single thing before I click on it.

[krait]

but here's an example of why someone would be angry about a fake 'read more' on tumblr

AHA! Yes, that makes perfect sense! *facepalming* I tend to forget that infinite-scroll is a thing, and I definitely forgot (if I ever knew) that it was a Tumblr thing! I use NoScript with Firefox, which doesn't allow for infinite-scroll, so I don't ever encounter it; as a result, it never occurred to me that it might be a common Tumblr setting. That makes for a much more obvious "do not want to click away" reason. :D

If I click the back button, it doesn't take me to the point at which I was reading, it takes me all the way back to the beginning

Urgh, that is awful! That also seems like it shouldn't happen; bad coding on Tumblr's part? But what do I know.

I've felt that frustration on various commercial websites, when they aren't set up to "remember" where you were in the search results and take you back there after looking at an item -- it's appalling! My deepest sympathies. :D

If I knew it was a link, I'd just open it in another tag

I know it's possible to code links so that they automatically open in a new tab/window; I should look up how to do that. (Which would still probably be a nice thing to warn for, in case people out there have software that would block it -- that has happened to me before, with NoScript/AdBlocker! Now I'm pretty quick to catch on that if I click a link and nothing happens, try either allowing the page or else deliberately opening it in a new tab; but in my early days I'd get extremely worried or annoyed that the site was broken!)

[pebblerocker]

I don't use Tumblr, so I only see people on DW complaining about Tumblr. And people on LJ complaining about LJ being dead!

[krait]

Wow, there are still people on LJ? [/kidding]

I think pretty much all of my friendslist over there has gone dark or migrated, but I'm sure there's still a few lingerers.

Sorry for the cranky!old!fan complaints lately; getting it from both sides can't be fun.

[tropicsbear]

I keep seeing people whine about how awesome LJ used to be and I'm like, "If you want DW to be the new fannish base, why don't you actually treat it like the new fannish base???"

Re: the fake Read More links. I think it depends on how you tag your posts? Like, I prefer the tag Erwin/Levi over Eruri, but the latter is the more popular Tumblr tag. And if a lot of people post using the same tag, the chances of your post getting lost is higher.

[krait]

Oooh, I hadn't thought of that!

AO3 has really spoiled me, with their tag-linking that means it doesn't matter whether I type "Eriruri" or "Erwin/Levi", it'll be found by people searching both groups.

Hmmmmmmm.

[krait]

Having considered carefully the merits and faults of various pairing tags, I have decided that my irrational hatred of namesmushing trumps my desire to increase readership by another five people. (The one advantage to writing a relatively unpopular pairing: if I lose 15% of readers due to nonexhaustive tagging, that works out to maybe 2 kudoses!)

Should I, therefore, set out to make a shill Tumblr for myself, I shall tag each pairing once or -- at maximum -- twice, with full names (and possibly first-names-only).

And since I find the "who goes first in the list = who tops" convention of some fandoms ridiculous, I shall hold to the policy I use here on DW, which is: alphabetical order, because it's easier to remember AND it keeps everything uniform. :D

...You know, I used to have a note in my profile about the naming conventions I used for pairings; maybe it should go back up?

[blnchflr]

Fake LJ-cuts! Had forgotten about those; good times :)

When you say daily round-up, I'm reminded of people who'd re-post their tweets to LJ/IJDW, round-up style, and there was a reason I wasn't following them on Twitter, but maybe Tumblr posts have more - what's the word I'm looking for? "Interesting" will have to do - content, even if short, and would lend themselves better to reposting on another type of site.

[krait]

I was thinking much the same -- I've had a person or two on my reading list who would post "collective" posts with their day's tweets. And many more who would do "three things make a post" posts, which are basically a collection of shortposts, too!

Both of those things were in my mind when writing this post, since one of the things I've seen Tumblr users mention is that they feel like they can't make "short" or "shallow" posts on DW/LJ the way they can with Tumblr.

I completely disagree, of course; plenty of times my posts have been, in essence, "Yay this fandom thing is awesome! I have been doing it all day!" or "Wow this character is beautiful, everybody look at him!" However, if that's how they feel, there's no reason they can't make those into Tumblr posts and then do a roundup later to flesh out a DW post.

[toft]

I agree!

[unsettledink]

I ... sort of agree with you? I mean, I *am* one of those people who, given a chance, will complain endlessly about trying to communicate with people on tumblr. But at the same time, I think i've only made one frustrated WHY TUMBLR post actually at *tumblr* itself - no one wants to hear you bitching about tumblr on tumblr, or lj on lj, or whatever. So, yeah, I see the annoyance in that.

Part of my frustration is that posting on lj and even linking things on lj from tumblr isn't getting any better response. It becomes especially frustrating to me when some of the people in interacted with most on lj have completely abandoned it in favor of tumblr - anything I post on tumblr will get a like, but seldom a response, while anything posted on lj and linked from tumblr gets silence. Are they just not responding because there isn't an easy like button, or are they not even following the links because it's that one extra step? Sigh. Enough of that and I start to question the point of even making those links.

It took writing this out to realize what my biggest annoyance with this post actually is - your response of 'if you miss the interaction on x site, post to x site' rubs me wrong because it ends up basically being 'if you want to read fic about x, stop complaining and write it!' which ignores the whole point that writing your own content is a totally different experience than reading what you're craving. So, sure, I can 'stop complaining and post something to lj every single day' or whatever, but that's still not actually the experience of interacting with people if no one ever responds to those posts. :s

*not that I'm a good example at all/glass houses etc since I don't think i've posted since April or something.

[krait]

I ... sort of agree with you? I mean, I *am* one of those people who, given a chance, will complain endlessly about trying to communicate with people on tumblr.

Heh. I think that I've amply proved that I am one of those people already, so. Complain away!

Part of my frustration is that posting on lj and even linking things on lj from tumblr isn't getting any better response.

This is... disheartening. Sigh. I have found this out about myself: I am not the kind of person who is highly motivated by strangers hitting a "like" button, at least if my reaction to AO3 kudos notices are a fair measure for this. It's WORDS that get me excited and make my brain kick into fannish high-gear.

Not even getting likes is pitiful; and now I'm curious, too, as to whether it's a case of "did not click the link" or "did not respond after reading"... Hmmm! *ponders experiments and polls*

your response of 'if you miss the interaction on x site, post to x site' rubs me wrong because it ends up basically being 'if you want to read fic about x, stop complaining and write it!'

...Except that I'm not telling them to stop complaining and write it, I'm telling them to post something that' already written? (I am with you 100% on hating the "then write it yourself" response!)

I'm not saying they need to start posting new, DW-exclusive content at DW! I'm just saying put your content -- the content you've already written -- on BOTH places! (Or, as you note, if it strikes you as tacky to complain about Service X via the medium of Service X, post your "here is what Tumblr can't do for me" content only on other sites... but if you're mad enough to make that post and then put up on Tumblr, I feel like the post would have happened regardless of where it was typed.)

Hope that helps clarify my griping, because eeurgh, no way do I want to sound like "stop complaining and write it"! By all means keep complaining! I want to join you in your complaining! I can see that you are an excellent complainer, and have many perfectly justified things to complain about! ...It's just that you're looking awfully silly when you appear not to realise that you are, in fact, using your complaints to do exactly what you're complaining about others doing. More so if your content seems designed to draw a response, yet you've posted it on the one place you're guaranteed not to get one; way to reinforce your own frustration!

So. Yeah. It doesn't feel like "write it" to me, it feels like "post it" -- because the person is clearly creating content already, or else they wouldn't be frustrated at not getting a response. (People can't respond to silence!) The complainers are generally active, involved fans on Tumblr, but seem to feel like they can't build connections via their activity. To adapt the fanfic analogy: it's more like you've already written the fic, but are hosting it on an obscure Geocities page with nothing but an email link in small font, and then complaining that you don't get feedback.

I don't want 'em to come to DW and create an entirely new bunch of stuff just for DW; I want 'em to come here and post all the same stuff they're already posting on Tumblr, so we can interact! What I want to read is exactly what you've already written, but you won't let me give you feedback that you say you want to receive.