Meta Meme: Topic By Tadashi_chan

[krait]

Her prompt:
Since I know you like Loveless, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject of Ritsuka and Soubi's relationship. It doesn't have to be exclusively about the 'romantic' aspect, per se, just the relationship in general (which kinda goes hand-in-hand with romance, I suppose).


First, let me note that my Loveless fannish experience is based solely the manga; I have never seen the anime, which I understand makes changes to some scenes I may quote here. I think I'll divide this into the past, present*, and future, as I see them. [*Another note: I have not read most of Volume 9, so "present" will be a bit out of date right now.]

Past
The relationship between Soubi and Ritsuka begins with Seimei: he assigned Soubi to find and "love" Ritsuka after his death, and Soubi is emotionally clueless enough to believe that love can be commanded. Thus he "loves" Ritsuka as he understands the word, and he expresses it via protection and rebellion: I suspect this is exactly how his relationship with Seimei began. Protectively, he fights other Fighter/Sacrifice teams for Ritsuka, conceals his injuries from Ritsuka, and attempts to create a bond between them by both physical affection -- kissing, etc. -- and general interaction, not differentiating between sexual and friendly love because he was never taught such things. Rebelliously, he occasionally lies to Ritsuka, and attempts to manipulate him, including trying to manipulate him into an emotional bond and into conforming to the behaviour of a Sacrifice as he was taught it: hence the "give me orders" and "treat me like an object" statements. (Which may have a bit of rebellion behind them, too -- if he knows Ritsuka is uncomfortable with such inequality, he might be trying to create an opposite reaction by pushing it too hard.)

So, the past of the relationship is based partly on deceit (Soubi's motives are somewhat suspect), and partly on genuine need -- Soubi needs a Master (or thinks he does) and a Sacrifice (he's one of the best Fighters, so clearly he takes pride in what he does), and is unable to connect emotionally to anyone else; Kio is too far outside his world, though he tries; the Zeros abandoned him when their trainer called; and the "girls" he mentions to Kio are clearly even further from his understanding even than Kio. Ritsuka needs a connexion to his brother and an outside source of stability -- he clearly recognises that when his mother has snapped, Soubi is the only one he dares to call or involve.


Present
They're getting better. Ritsuka has discovered Soubi's weirdnesses regarding love and past role under Seimei, and is not afraid to tell an "adult" that what he experienced was wrong! (One can only hope this will eventually spill over into his own relationship with his mother, another adult whose actions/beliefs are wrong and need to be opposed...) Soubi is, I think, also coming to truly love Ritsuka in some sense, or at least to recognise that an emotional bond doesn't need to involve molestation: there haven't been any kisses for several volumes, now! Which is what drives me to believe that the love between them isn't really sexual; it's that Soubi doesn't understand the boundaries and Ritsuka is too traumatised by other things in his life to explain them to him. Soubi is seeking any emotional closeness that will strengthen their Fighter/Sacrifice bond... and now Ritsuka has deliberately chosen that bond, in pretty symbolic/significant circumstances: in front of other students of the school he was taught in, where the bond is a tangible, visibl thing and no one can claim Ritsuka wasn't aware of what he was doing or what it meant.

Future
I am horrible at predictions, so I'm not going to say what I think KY will do with the relationship! All I can offer are the various paths I think it could go. Firstly, Soubi has tried to say "no" to Seimei, the god of his former existence! I think this is a huge breakthrough, and due in part to Ritsuka's influence! Perhaps, once Soubi has really "grown up" to match his physical age, he'll be able to mentor Ritsuka in turn, assuming Ritsuka still needs it; if nothing else, he'll always be the one who went through 'all that crazy Seimei stuff' with him, which no one else will know about -- an additional bond, in addition to the insider-feeling Soubi himself faces, alone in a world that doesn't seem to know anything about what he is or does. Secondly, it's possible the relationship will redevelop sexual expressions; they're certainly alone enough in the world now, bound together by the aforementioned insider-ness and Seimei-related history as well as their Fighter/Sacrifice bond and, one hopes, the eventual defeat of both their personal tormentors (Seimei and Misaki). Thirdly, even if they don't go that way (I, uh, hope they do, though, because I am an unrepentant slasher!), I suspect that short of the death of one they'll always be close, each the brother or teacher that the other never had. I really don't think KY would write nine-plus volumes and then let them split up and never see each other again! Though I could see them deciding on a period of separation, to encourage growth or for necessary reasons (the law after them for killing Seimei? Ritsuka going to University, or taking a distant job?)...

So, tadashi_chan, how was that? (Aside from long!) If you still want something narrowed down, feel free to ask! I could go on forever about these two; they have so many facets and interlocking (and conflicting) angles. :D

Comments

Part 1/2

[tadashi-chan.livejournal.com]

You're not missing much, btw. The animé was ok but trust me when I say that the final episode -- although it was a mindfuck -- is probably the best way that this series could ever end.

including trying to manipulate him into an emotional bond

THANK YOU! Geez! I think some of the fans interpret Soubi as "actually trying to bond with Ritsuka", but all I see is straight up manipulation. Or, at the very least, he could be trying to start something genuine but really going the wrong way about it, since manipulation tactics are all he knows (ie: manipulating words to form spells).

Soubi's motives are somewhat suspect

I don't think Soubi can ever be disentangled from Seimei, really. Look at how it came to be that Soubi and Ritsuka met. And we still don't have clarity (in volume 7, anyway) that Soubi is acting of his own accord. I seem to recall one instance in which Ritsuka grilled Soubi about whether Seimei's been manipulating him (still) or not. Hell, even if Seimei is killed (for real this time), I don't think Soubi will ever be free from Seimei's influence. And neither will Ritsuka really. This is why these poor boys are totally f***ed. These are scars - mental, emotional, physical, hell, possibly even sexual - that they will never get over.

I think, also coming to truly love Ritsuka in some sense, or at least to recognise that an emotional bond doesn't need to involve molestation

Part the first: that ear-piercing incident is the most vivid memory I have of them "bonding". They did an episode of that in the anime (episode 3 or 4, I think), and it really struck a chord with me. I also recall Soubi saying, "I could never have known that I'd come to love him so much." Very early on, considering the progress we've made, but I like to think that we can adapt that expression to fit any situation they're in, really.

Part the second: I am, for one, glad about the lack of molestation. They're finally getting some boundaries, here, and it's really getting to be more of an emotional connection rather than... basically, forced pedophilia. (Side note: no waaaaay! Spellcheck doesn't recognize the word 'pedophilia'! XD)

I am horrible at predictions

God, me too. Also, I giggled when you said "what KY will do". I thought you meant the popular lube company, not... Koga Yun.

Moving swiftly on.

Soubi saying no to Seimei: It might destroy him emotionally, at least partially, but I absolutely agree that it will do wonders for him. Perfect time would've been when Ritsuka ordered Soubi to prevent Seimei from leaving and Soubi did nothing. But he wasn't ready. There needs to be more development. I don't even know what it should be! I could say we need an "impossible choice" situation... but the backlash would probably cause more regret and actually hinder emotional growth than anything.

Re: Part 1/2

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

Definitely. I think Soubi is genuinely trying to form a bond with Ritsuka (because he's been told to), but he doesn't know how to do so -- all his life, people have dealt with him either by manipulation (Ritsu took his ears, led him to think he'd choose him, then handed him off to someone else) or by direct order (teachers, Seimei). Both involved the constant threat of punishment. Since Ritsuka is a Sacrifice (i.e. practically a deity) as well as the person he's been commanded to "love," Soubi isn't in a position to give him orders...

All the "love" he's ever received turned out to be manipulation, and then there's the fact that partnering Ritsuka is itself part of an order he's been given, which quite likely means "to be accomplished by any means necessary, and without regard for the consequences to either you or the target". So faced with an order to "love" (and protect/bond with as Fighter) an unknown person, he goes with what he knows of love, but he goes at it in the same way he'd approach any other order, i.e. from every angle and with no holds barred.

I giggled when you said "what KY will do".

Trust me, I did that on purpose. That was how I remembered her name back when I first entered fandom! (I kept mixing it up and muttering, "Yun Kouga? Kun Youga?" and then I realised: slash needs lube, and there is should be slash in this series, so it must be Kun Youga, i.e. KY! And I had no more trouble remembering.) :D

Re: Part 1/2

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

Yes, the lack-of-molestation is extremely nice. :D I think KY is using this series to deliberately overturn a bunch of well-worn yaoi tropes: not only do we have a typically-young-and-cute underage kid being harassed by a much older man, which turns out to be something other than sexual; we also have a relationship in which the young, cute, naive, cat-eared virgin preteen is presented both visually and verbally as the "dominant" member of the pair. (Check out how many times they're drawn in positions where Ritsuka is above/taller than Soubi! I'm convinced she's deliberately messing with the "Height Rule Of Yaoi" in full knowledge.) :D

The ear-piercing scene is particularly squick-inducing for me, handily combining in perfect trifecta my Molestation Senses Tingling, needle phobia, and manipulation (in the sense that Soubi's incorporating a masochistic/sexual/"claiming"/bonding overtone to the proceedings that Ritsuka doesn't fully understand) squick. Extremely powerful, and extremely uneasy-making; an unforgettable and resonant combination. No wonder this fandom's story seems to be, "Come for the dirtywrong shouta, stay for the characters and worldbuilding!" :D

I really love the little signs all through the manga that Soubi's love-on-command is turning into a genuine emotion, and the ways he's realising it and being surprised by the difference. :D

Part 2/2

[tadashi-chan.livejournal.com]

On the topic of possibly losing the Fighter/Sacrifice bond: I actually like this idea. I never really thought about it before. Ritsuka has a 'piano wire' that doesn't connect to Soubi. Does that mean I want to see Ritsuka with someone else? No. But if these two ever want a shot at a normal relationship (with or without a healthy sexual dynamic), I think it'd be best for them to quit it.

But how exactly do you quit being a Fighter, or a Sacrifice?

Being a Fighter is all Soubi knows, and it'd be far more difficult for him to let go of the mentality. Ritsuka, on the other hand, could still get a handle on regularity if he manages to shed his Sacrifice title before any kind of lasting damage. But the way things appear to be unfolding, this will never happen. If he ever gets the chance to stop being a Sacrifice, he'd probably be resistant to the idea, due to the fact that he's gotten too invested to ever let go. And seeing that kind of impending doom is tragic. But keeping the titles, even if they never battle again, would be a beautiful symbol of a tough time that they worked through - together. I think we can safely say that, no matter the outcome in the future, there will never be any normalcy here. There's too much damage. And taking a break from each other would be healthy in some aspects, but I think that they're getting so invested in their 'relationship' that they would only end up gravitating back to each other somehow.

My ideal ending would be to see them completely moving on from Seimei, but I honestly doubt that it's possible. There will always be something lingering there.

I think this is lovely ^^ There are literally, so many angles that you can look at this from, you can't possibly sum up their relationship in less than three paragraphs. It's such an intricate relationship, and you can't look at one aspect without unlocking a thousand new aspects and questions. Length is to be expected. But honestly, I like your response. It made me think, if only a little.

Re: Part 2/2

[fer-de-lance.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you! Glad my three(ish) paragraphs managed to produce thought. Actually, I'm glad they managed to be legible/coherent! Every time I finished one I immediately thought of about sixty more things I wanted to try to cram in... :D

Regarding the bond, I think/hope that Ritsuka's deliberate choice of Soubi, when completely aware of his "connecting wire" going elsewhere, is binding in at least some sense, and may even result in the other half of the pair never developing into a Fighter. We know from Seimei's actions that bonds CAN be deliberately forged and broken (Nisei's age means he was alive when Soubi and Seimei fought together, and Soubi was genuinely connected to Seimei via that bond -- though I have a notion it might not have been as strong/powerful -- and he felt it break at Seimei's 'death'). Given the huge power of words in this series, it wouldn't surprise me too much if Ritsuka's vocalised choice can redirect the bond to another, even without knives getting involved!

I don't think they'll ever be normal, exactly. Soubi, I fear, less so than Ritsuka -- Ritsuka having had a truly disturbed childhood, but nonetheless the sort that many people grow out of, and not involving brainwashing and slave-mentalities; plus it at least isn't tied to his very identity (Soubi will never not be a Fighter, at least not without trauma, but Ritsuka doesn't expect to stay a kid forever). Likewise, however long it takes them to deal with Seimei, Soubi will have been in the midst of that tension a lot longer than Ritsuka by virtue of finding out first (and not having the added shock of discovering Seimei is different than he thought).

I do think there's chance for healing, though; they may always be the odd pair out in the normal world (hopefully with Kio determinedly pestering them to open up more!), but I think that together they can shore each other up, because each is strong where the other is weak -- Soubi can see the problem of Ritsuka's family, and Ritsuka can see the problem with Soubi's teachers, and each sees the problem of Seimei in light of the other ("Don't hurt Soubi" / "Leave Ritsuka alone!"). And Ritsuka, at least, has some nominal links to the outside -- school, teachers, friends, a therapist -- who knows, perhaps even his father, if his mother recovers -- that can give him some grounding in "normal life", enough that Fighter/Sacrifice won't become his whole world the way it is for Soubi.

It'll definitely be much harder for Soubi to let go of the Fighter mentality! Keeping the titles would at least allow Soubi some vestige of his old identity, though given his devotion to being the best Fighter, I don't know how much an empty title would help. Still, he might well find some comfort in the knowledge that he has a Sacrifice, and that Sacrifice will never abandon him despite knowing he's a Blank/they don't share a name -- Ritsuka has made it crystal-clear that he doesn't accept "Names" as unalterable destiny, he values his right to choose how his life will go... and he's chosen Soubi as part of it. (Just typing that makes me want to squee. Even if they never share a bed, I think that's enough of an emotional whammy for Soubi to give him a better start on defining love!)

Ritsuka may always be the one drawing Soubi along and prodding him into new experiences; I don't think he'd let Soubi withdraw completely from the world. Even at twelve he seems to know better than that, given how he puts up with Kio and can refute Seimei's attempt to make him part of a one-human-being world.

I think that, no matter how much healing they accomplish, together or (somewhat) apart, both of them will always be the only two who mourn Seimei a little, too, even while acknowledging that he was wrong and did horrible things -- not the healthiest of positions (?), but not, I think, sufficient to constitute "permanently broken". I believe that even if they never spoke another word to each other for the rest of their lives after defeating Seimei, they'd still be connected by that tiny regret, the knowledge that somewhere in the world is one other person who mourns for the person you had to take down.