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FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #6
This is the discussion post for chapter 9-13.
I am now heartily wishing that I'd looked at chapter content as well as at page-counts, when setting up the reading schedule! (I thought even then it might bite me, and it has!) This reading was composed of a hundred pounds of action, a hundred pounds of disconnected info-bites, a thousand pounds of questions, and half a gram of explanations! My brain was churning faster than Babsidi's legs, but reached even fewer coherent thoughts than Bren manages.
On the other hand: yay, mecheiti icon becomes more appropriate than ever! :D
I am now heartily wishing that I'd looked at chapter content as well as at page-counts, when setting up the reading schedule! (I thought even then it might bite me, and it has!) This reading was composed of a hundred pounds of action, a hundred pounds of disconnected info-bites, a thousand pounds of questions, and half a gram of explanations! My brain was churning faster than Babsidi's legs, but reached even fewer coherent thoughts than Bren manages.
On the other hand: yay, mecheiti icon becomes more appropriate than ever! :D
with my own mecheita icon...
And then he muses that he likes Ilisidi. Bad Bren! No cookie (alkaloid-free or not) for you!
Huh. They do hunt on Mospheira, and Bren's been - though from the mention of "small game, very small", I get the impression of small-bore rifle, which is a very different thing from a pistol that'll stop a human or atevi.
Cenedi gives Bren a reason not to expect Banichi or Jago to come running, and Bren buys it right away. Sigh.
And the letter from Tabini! "If it was you behind the assassination in his bedroom, here's a chance to do it or not do it." Ugh. On the other hand, this proves that the attempt in Bren's apartment wasn't a setup on Tabini's part to see which way Bren would jump. Maybe.
It also proves that it's Tabini's doing that keeps Bren's guards away much more than they should be and more than they'll ever be in later books - he's trying to see what Ilisidi will do, just like Banichi gave Cenedi a chance to kill him.
And then the interrogation. It's interesting that Mospheira wants paidhiin to commit suicide. Here's another reason to send Bren away prior to attacking Mospheira: to provide the reason to do so. (Not that Tabini was doing that, mind you; but Bren should have been much more afraid of the television interview at the time than he was.)
Interesting that Bren yells for Banichi and Tano, not Banichi and Jago. Is he yelling for the leaders of the guard pairs?
Okay, so Tabini took Bren shooting before this crisis was known, so that wasn't a specific warning.
I was wondering whether an ateva would protect his aiji by lying for him the way Bren lied for Tabini - apparently that's the case, but nobody expected Bren, who doesn't feel man'chi, to do so.
Whew. I'm only at the end of chapter 11 - these chapters move so fast, and are so full of events, that it seems longer already than the "normal" discussion length. Off on mecheiti, again.
How might "taking the obvious course" count as betrayal? Is it fourteen words for betrayal (sigh), or is it betrayal+modifier01, betrayal+modifier02 ... betrayal+modifier14? Why would they not teach the paidhiin at least a felicitous number of words? Is something added or subtracted that previous paidhiin didn't realize was superfluous or missing, since the total didn't feel infelicitous to them?
And then Bren acts like an ateva with man'chi to Banichi - like he's the guard - and runs after him. It's a thing that's totally appropriate for a human commander ("I won't leave any of you behind, men!") but completely inexplicable to an atevi. I really felt Bren's hurt confusion at everyone treating him like a lunatic. :/
Aww, mecheiti screaming and getting put down :(
Re: with my own mecheita icon...
Thank you! I couldn't tell, from context, what might be involved -- popping rabbits with BB guns, or what? My knowledge of guns being limited to "point the tube part away from self". :D
Bren's "small, very small" game might be a further point in favour of Mospheira being mountainous? I do remember his first sight of mecheiti, and that he said Mospheira didn't have anything that size...
So Mospheirans still don't have much-if-anything by way of serious weaponry, not in the hands of the average citizen -- rather like it was in Bretano's time! (They do have island-wide type defences, though -- Bren's thought that "an old man in a rowboat" couldn't reach Mospheira unnoticed says as much.)
How might "taking the obvious course" count as betrayal? Is it fourteen words for betrayal (sigh), or is it betrayal+modifier01,
My personal headcanon? "Taking the obvious course" = "leaving an association that no longer benefits you" = "severing ties with an aiji whose association is counter to your interests" = "withdrawing man'chi from an aiji" = "betrayal".
I suspect there's probably a combination: three or four base words, say (betrayal-by-having-a-higher-man'chi, betrayal-by-self-interest, and betrayal-by-unexpected-development-with-no-prior-intent), and then modifiers for those depending on, oh, the difference in levels of man'chi involved (atevi are instinctive mathematicians), the severity of the damage done (from total destruction of the aiji's power to minor inconvenience), etc.
Aww, mecheiti screaming
It's silly, but like Bren I've become rather attached to Babs and Nokhada!
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
I like your headcanon on what "taking the obvious course" means. I still think that if there's a combination, the end result is still probably a favorable number, even if that means one of them is essentially meaningless, like "betrayal that doesn't actually harm anyone" or something. :D
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
There's probably an entire subset (words or modifiers, or both) dealing with sexual partners and married couples, which Bren wouldn't know due to atevi reticence on such things, so the numbers may well come out favourably. :D
Actually, the same could be said regarding parent/child relationships, since that's another area where atevi are exceedingly tight-lipped, and we know it involves some major shifts in man'chi over the course of the child's growth. Lots of potential for betrayals there!
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
Right -- after all, one doesn't speak of such things in casual conversation (which is, frankly, all Bren HAS with humans by that point), so Bren's hardly going to be able to explain to them why he suddenly has some updates for the dictionary... :D
And you're right, he still may not know them -- after all, even if they're willing to talk to him about some taboo things, like the numbers of technology, they still may not be comfortable discussing their sex lives and the political ramifications thereof with an alien, even a polite one.
thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
-- Bren puts too much reliance on that nonfatal tea! Just because she didn't want to kill you then doesn't mean she won't off you after having some time to observe you...
-- I love that Bren's junkmail is stolen and sold on the black market! To crazy atevi who think skiing looks like fun and they don't need instructions, they'll just figure it out by pictures and guesswork. *facepalming*
-- Paidhiin have to consult; atevi initially didn't expect this, but it's now known to pretty much all the court in Shejidan. And Bren doesn't think Malguri is less informed than the court. So all the pushing they've been doing (and Tabini, too) -- is completely deliberate, and done in full knowledge that what Bren agrees to is technically out of his authority. Still trying to find out whom he favours?
-- I like the various workarounds humans have developed for diplomacy's sake -- "the numbers describe the universe, and how can the universe be infelicitous?" and the avoidance of any mention of limitlessness/infinity.
-- Tabini calls Ilisidi "my favorite enemy" in his letter! Somehow that really makes me grin. :D
-- I love the idea of an atevi paidhi-to-humans! Wish that had happened! Wish there was a novel about it, too! :D
-- Are there really a dozen "painless" methods of suicide? Especially for a man alone in a dark basement, restrained?
-- EGAD, the balcony scene blows me away! Utterly. "My eyes aren't what they were. When I was your age I could see your orbiting station. Can you, from here?" -- Ilisidi, you are...!
I think part of the impact for me is that Bren has been genuinely, totally clueless until now, and in addition to SO MUCH clicking into place, I'm also wondering what Ilisidi and Cenedi can see on his face in that moment. I suspect that nobody believed just how uninformed he was... And a great deal of their confusion and distrust of his every word was on that account. Now... do they see? Do they believe? That the paidhi is the last to know, that he has had no pressing motive for lying, no inkling that anything more is at stake upon his answers than there was a month ago?
Can they feel empathy at all, for a man in a position distant from and betrayed by his own "aijiin", or is it all their attention still focused on their own plans?
-- Of the sciences left to humans alone, add human history: no one told the atevi about the power struggle between the shipborn and the stationers. Wonder why? Too busy trying to convey the very basics ("We got lost, we had enough fuel to get here, the station broke down and we had nowhere else to go"), and/or present themselves in the best light?
-- Ilisidi's comment that "Tabini placed great confidence in you -- too damned much confidence in you" is a startling mirror of what Bren's been thinking for the last half-book, to wit: "I was too confident in my relationship with Tabini, have I screwed up everything for my species?"
-- Linguistic moment: Ilisidi knows all the good swear-words! "Baji-naji, nand' paidhi. Fortune has a human face and bastard Chance whores drunken down your streets." Given the atevi emphasis on politeness and Bren's commentary on "damn" being verboten, would he even know the words she uses? Maybe only in a "be sure you never, ever mangle a similar word into this" sort of way?
-- Restorative powers of tea! A pot later, Bren's something like back on his game, catching onto the dowager's push/challenge to leave.
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
I hope Ilisidi can read human emotions and see that Bren had no idea about the ship until he saw it from her balcony. Atevi don't show much emotion on their faces, so they will be really good at reading what signs there are, and absolute shock could look similar across species.
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
Eek! I hope not! Unless they can prove a human was responsible for diverting that bit of mail... His security might get in trouble, for not catching the mail-pilferers, too.
Hey, I have a great idea for Bren to make a bit of extra money! He could sell instructional videos for things like skiing. (Waterskiing, too, if he got Toby in on the deal?)
I hope Ilisidi can read human emotions and see that Bren had no idea about the ship
I hope so, too! I found it a little worrying that she said "that's a little too incredible" after watching his reaction... Maybe, to an ateva used to minimal reactions, it looked overdone? Or she didn't trust her own interpretation -- because shock could well look similar, but she knows humans do differ in significant and unexpected ways, and can't rely on reading him?
Hopefully further exposure to Bren will convince her that he's a horrible face-liar unless he's got a script. :D
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
Yes, he shows so much more on his face that even if the emotion is very similar to what atevi feel, it might be hard for them to believe he's sincere.
Re: thoughts and reactions, chapters 9-11
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Some spoilerish thoughts about said revelations.
-- As Bren observes, later: they're running to "a man we think is safe" -- man'chi being surer than land boundaries, Association stronger than geography.
-- Spoilery thoughts about nicknames and Ilisidi! Greyed-out, as they pertain to the third (I think) trilogy.
-- The scene where everyone hears the plane before Bren does is one of those small, perfect impacts for me. The way the mecheiti all look first, and the atevi, attuned to them, all leap for cover... and Bren, the alien in the midst, doesn't understand until he hears the plane and someone yanks him down.
-- Running for Banichi! Bren, you idiot, you perfect human idiot. *facepalms* Atevi run to their aijiin in an emergency, instinctively; and now you've just bolted for someone who's not an aiji at all. Every doubt they ever had about you must be boiling back to the surface! Poor Jago and Banichi, stuck trying to explain that their charge isn't a traitor or secret subversive, he's just so differently wired in this essential thing that 'insane' is the only way to make sense of it.
-- We're finally seeing atevi technical advances, and it's exactly the nightmare Bren has mused on how humanity tried to prevent -- mass destruction of persons and property using human-devised weapons, with no finesse and no concept of acceptable targets. That's one genie who's not going to go back in the bottle easily...
-- If atevi don't even swear in decent conversation, what does it take to make one strike somebody across the face? Bren's really put his foot in it -- in something -- somehow!
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And maybe Jago has figured out that Bren's brain is processing too slowly right now, so she went with the obvious and un-misinterpretable way of conveying 'shut up and pay attention'?
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