krait | FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #5

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FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #5

Putting this up a bit late today; sorry to keep anyone waiting!

How have chapters 7 and 8 been treating you? Any new observations, theories, sore points, fabulous quotations?

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Apologies for being a day late with my own comments; though I see I'm in good company. :D

Thoughts!

1. Bren with the tourists: how can he be so adorable? How can atevi tourists be so adorable? :D "Sign a card for me, nand' paidhi! Can I have a picture taken with you, nand' paidhi? Please remember my grandchildren, nand' paidhi!" Heeheehee! I melted. Wish Bren could meet the "average ateva on the street" more often, after this. He has a knack. :D

2. Proof Bren's security is highly trained and professional: the instant response to both the intruder and the social situation proves they aren't junior or incompetent staff... Making me all the more wildly curious about what went wrong earlier when Bren received the dowager's invitation.

3. Mild spoilers? Bren's reactions and, er, reactions.

4. The tenuous safety of Bren's position always startles me: his office might know he's not [insert excuse for why they couldn't reach him here], but they won't challenge the Bu-javid over the lie; they'd just try to find him so that they can make him a scapegoat and replace him.

5. Tabini's the "easiest" aiji humans have ever had to deal with! ...Why do I not feel terribly reassured? I suspected right from the first chapter, when Bren thinks about their little shooting vacation, that Tabini has studied humans intensively and is very, very good at manipulating them; I'm not sure how he did it, but I'm more convinced than ever now.

6. Banichi invites himself to dinner with Bren? After refusing to accompany Bren to breakfast with Ilisidi on the grounds that it was rude?

7. Chilling discussion with Banichi over man'chi!

"And how can you defend anything? No one understands your associations. [...] Even I don't know that absolutely, nadi. I know only what you tell me."

Edited (fixed link) 2011-06-18 02:28 (UTC)

Reading through this time, I'm really starting to believe that Tabini has a better interspecies understanding than the paidhi or anyone else. I wonder, if he is using tactics that don't have any emotional weight for him to manipulate Bren, how he narrates his actions to himself, and how he gets it so consistently right.

I had that same impression when Bren was telling the reader all about how he had so much fun with Tabini at his shooting retreat and they were getting "close" and it was something like friendship, the relaxing of formality - my brain went *blinkblink* This aiji has put intensive study into learning how to manipulate humans emotionally.

I bet he spent a LOT of time studying Vasaji(?not his name, but can't remember the spelling) and Wilson.

Oooh, and just this instant my brain hit me with: That brings a whole new meaning to Wilson's "just the same as the rest of them" comment to Bren!! Was Wilson-paidhi the subject of intensive subtle emotional-reaction-testing from the aiji-to-be? No wonder he seems bitter about Tabini's being "just like" all other atevi...

1. Where is Bren's security going all the time? The nearest airport is quite far away, as I remember, and unless they've their own private vehicles (despite the lack of roads), I'm not sure where exactly they're always disappearing to!

Into the town, perhaps on mecheiti, to make communications in guaranteed non-overheard-ness, or send documents? Into the hills, to set up some kind of shelter, or trap, or...?

Or are they lying to Bren about being away, and really just down the hall in their security station doing Things Bren Doesn't Need To Know About? If so, what things?

What's your reading of the Mysterious Absences Of Security, everyone? I need some backup brains, here!

2. Does "dragonettes" bother anyone else, grammatically speaking? :D

3. What is Tabini thinking, with the television interview which he surely knows Bren isn't authorised by his own people to give?! After packing him off into out-of-sight-out-of-mind obscurity, too! Even with this not being my first time reading this book, I'm surprised by this -- is it just a very large gamble on whether he can force Bren to act for him beyond Mospheira's oversights? Is it a test of Bren's claim to hold/understand man'chi (again, a very public one involving the reputations of dozens of his own associates)?

4. Could atevi thought be more compartmentalised than humans manage? Several times now we've had an ateva tell Bren, essentially, 'don't worry, return to whatever you were doing', and some hints that they can do just that when (to a human) nerve-wracking things happen. Maybe atevi brains are faster to "come down" from adrenaline highs, and/or their equivalent fight/flight hormones are faster-dissipating?

It could account for both the blase attitudes toward violence/unexpected events, and their apparently serious advice to Bren that he disregard the power outages and go back to mental shopping for skis. Maybe even contributes to needing less sleep, if they do? Less emotional tension over everyday events = less need to process things subconsciously via dreaming?

Dragonettes is weird to me, but I'm not sure dragonling would sound any better.

The mysterious absences of security seem arranged, to me, but arranged by whom? Is it Tabini, trying to give his grandmother opportunity to act or not act, the way Banichi deliberately gave Cenedi the chance to kill him? Is it something else? Certainly Jago seems like she's not happy with having to leave her charge so often. On the other hand I think Tano and Algini are probably closer to Bren than anyone's admitting to him, perhaps so that if asked he can pass on the lie convincingly?

I think you're right that atevi thought is more compartmentalized - perhaps it's a factor of just being faster? They're warmer than humans, they like stimulants in their tea and/or pickles, and consequently they might well do emotions faster - maybe for a human it would be unhealthy cycling between emotions, even?

Dragonet would work for me. The -ette seems to imply a feminine state. (Maybe they're an all-female species?)

Tabini, trying to give his grandmother opportunity to act or not act,

I like this train of thought! Suspiciously likely. (Although maybe it's just that Bren's security is having more trouble than anticipated, given the antiquity restrictions of Malguri... Having to fetch parts, for example, or set up things manually that they normally would have subordinates do?)

Alternately, maybe they've been arranged by Ilisidi's security: testing what they're up against, if they decide to make a move against Bren? It would probably be easier for them than for Tabini to arrange such things; "Oh, you'll have to go get a new monitor, we don't have any spares here". What can they say to that, "I don't believe you, let me search your storerooms?" That'd go over well! :P Since Bren's already using some of Malguri's staff, all they'd need is to slip an Assassin into that group and then distract Bren's security to give them time for a thorough search and assessment; when they get back, scans and Bren will attest that no one unauthorised has entered, and they'll know exactly what the Paidhi's papers say and how best to access his room and bypass his security's setups...

I think Tano and Algini are probably closer to Bren than anyone's admitting

Heh. When the staff refuses to tell him where someone is AND doesn't say definitively that they're "out [of Malguri]", my mind jumps to "lurking in the security station, monitoring Bren with one eye while they try to get some other work done"... :D

consequently they might well do emotions faster - maybe for a human it would be unhealthy

Well, humans have evolved to fit their own pace! So it would be unhealthy for us to try to change that, aside from the "over generations" type of "gradually". Our bodies need time to dissipate the hormones we throw at them. :D And since we've evolved to think of things like Bren's post-action shakes as normal, people who didn't do that would be diagnosed as abnormal; and they'd probably make everyone distrust them. (Think about it: what do you call someone who's not scared by a near-death experience, a day later? Or someone who's not upset at being severely injured by someone in their social group? The human words for that are "sociopath" or other clinical terms for mental abnormalities...)

*thinking* I don't really have the impression that atevi are faster; they seem to live about as long as humans, and perceive things at the same speed? And the heat would be because they're larger, which means they retain it better -- which would mean their systems don't have to work as hard to keep them warm, i.e. they could actually metabolise slower than a human when it comes to homeostasis, because they don't have to compensate for as much heat loss as a human does.

They might have more quick-twitch fibres in their muscle composition, enabling faster reactions (like a cat), but they surely aren't all quick-twitch, because they definitely have stamina! :D Poor Bren -- nothing to make you feel less manly than being exhausted while all your security just keeps running like overtall, overarmed Energizer Bunnies!

Maybe, because of their pack-like instincts, it was advantageous to "proto-atevi" to shift emotions quickly? Because if you're still angry hours later about being challenged, you're going to affect all of your followers and possibly kick off something vicious between the challenger (and those who hold man'chi to him) and your other supporters (and those who hold man'chi to them), and that's 1. not productive, and 2. going to ultimately weaken your own power base?

Or, if you're the average-ateva-below-the-aiji,I suspect you'd get pushed down in "rank" amongst your associates, lose standing with your leader, and possibly lose some of your man'chi-givers (if you're weak, you can't protect them/aren't a leader), further reducing your status.

Either way, the faster you can control your emotional reactions, the more stable your position and support is going to stay; makes sense, then, that they'd develop ways of thinking and responding that emphasise the immediate (and affect mostly the immediate, leaving the brain free to consider the long-term) and the minimising of outward reaction...

Replying to this on the spoiler post.

Some of my very favourite parts in this section! Bren running into the tourists and being polite and charming, and having them tell him about their grandchildren -- lovely! He's probably met no ordinary atevi in his life, only aijiin, politicians and servants, so this was a good glimpse for us of everyday lives and families and most educational for him. Possibly something no paidhi since Ian Bretano has had?

"I'm that tall, look!" Yes, that was very inshiebi and deserved a reprimand; on the other hand, one does not make the grade as paidhi-candidate if overly touchy about one's height, I'm sure!

I do wonder what smiling for the camera "atevi-style" looks like.

Another Djinana bit I really loved: he insists Bren can't have just toast for dinner after missing lunch, and when Bren admits his difficulty with the wild reptile of the season he has "a most conspiratorial look" when suggesting the leftover smoked meat, and is very pleased with himself to be able to bend the rules of kabiu enough to provide something the guest likes. [That's atevi like, of course.)

Banichi is unusually forthcoming over dinner: how the assassin got in, that Cenedi was the one who shot him, that he had the same teachers as Banichi did at assassin college (!), some details of where and how they're investigating, what they did with the body... as well as where Algini and Jago are, which is something the bodyguards often seem to think their charge doesn't need to know.

Another part I really love:
"There were children in that crowd! They saw a man shot!" says Bren.
"Yes, and?" says Banichi.
"It's not right. They thought it was a play!"
"Then they were hardly offended."

LOL! Some parts of atevi culture and thought are really, shockingly alien to humans.

I kind of had the feeling of a little kid commenting on someone's disability when the kid ran up to Bren - it's hard to know just how young the kid was, since atevi are bigger, and how much it was "pointing out something adults pretend not to notice" (my reading of what "indiscreet" means in the definition for inshiebi) or how much it was deliberate.

I kind of thought it was adorable. :D But then, I'm also a fan of Miles Vorkosigan, and I started remembering Ekaterin's concern over how her stepson was almost as tall as Miles... Hee!

Spoilerish comments regarding atevi height.

Edited (fixed link) 2011-06-19 05:41 (UTC)

The tourists! Seeing poor Bren just come back from riding - it makes me wonder if some of the surprise might be just because it was the paidhi not looking immaculate the way he always has on television! And then Tano scolds Bren, but nobody told Bren... poor Bren.

And then he thinks about Barb - could he really bring a wife with him? I think even if Barb wouldn't "die of boredom and frustration" that'd be a bad idea, even if he did love her rather than need her for occasional human company. (This doesn't make Bren sound like a great guy.)

He still doesn't trust Tano, it seems - I'm sure the rebuke that he had no way to expect doesn't help. But then he trusts Tano more than he trusts Djinana or Maigi...

Now he starts worrying that the Treaty might be collapsing - but he dismisses the worry immediately! Argh!

And then Jago goes back to Shejidan, or Banichi tells Bren she has... and "he didn't even ask why", which makes sense, but he doesn't even seem to wonder why! (Though it seems she really did go, because she's escorting the remains of the assassin - who was not just a little-a assassin, but a big-a Assassin, licensed to carry out assassinations, no less, but without a filing to justify it...)

"I have confidence in your professional instincts. Have confidence in mine." Aha! Banichi agrees with me that Bren's best when he's acting on instinct! :D

I have never ridden - is Bren's experience like that of a really really bad rider on a horse, or twice or ten times as bad...? He certainly seems miserable, no matter how much fun mecheita-riding seems to be to me.

"I've never betrayed you. I will not, Bren-ji," has the same emotional impact it did when I first read this! In a language that judges by previous actions and future intent, how else to say "you can trust me"? :3

And then another cliffhanger ending!

is Bren's experience like that of a really really bad rider on a horse, or twice or ten times as bad...? He certainly seems miserable, no matter how much fun mecheita-riding seems to be to me.

Well, aside from the increased chance of being gored and/or trampled, it's rather horselike. :D Especially the accidental split lip (you can do that when jumping, if you're leaning too far forward when the neck comes up) and the going-in-circles (try dropping a rein sometime -- embarrassing AND dizzying, esp. if the horse steps on it!) and the intimate bruising. :D Though I have never been quite as saddlesore as poor Bren, I have also never spent hours on essentially a runaway horse -- mecheiti seem to travel faster, and over rougher terrain, than I've dealt with), and what I have dealt with makes it sound reasonable!

"I've never betrayed you. I will not, Bren-ji," has the same emotional impact it did when I first read this! In a language that judges by previous actions and future intent, how else to say "you can trust me"? :3

That scene hits me every time. :D Maybe if she knew that Mosphei' had a word for that, she'd feel less frustrated about how to convince Bren...?

another cliffhanger ending!

Heh, I was afraid of this when I was writing up chapter sets! I knew there was the chance, going strictly on page counts, that I'd end up breaking the plot into dangling chunks... And it's happened! (Wonder if that's a usual novel structure? "Throw a cliffhanger at them every 60 pages or so for ideal pacing"? Hmmmm.)

I also loved Bren with the tourists. The part with the kid comparing heights reminded me of another discussion about Bren being "coded female". I don't think he really is coded female; he seems very male to me and this part, where he is compared to a kid in size emphasizes that for me. He's not woman-sized in comparison to Atevi, he's child-sized. Scary. :)

The first time I read this and this time as well, it seems to me that Banichi is being deliberately provocative during their dinner together. Like he's up to something. Emphasized by Jago's "I've never betrayed you. . ." speech.

Bren, why are you answering Cenedi's summons? TSTL, much?

That's interesting! We've had some other child comparisons already -- Bren in bed, sick, while the "adults" talk around him is explicitly compared to childhood; and I got a rather childlike mental image when he first met Ilisidi and was sitting on the chair tucked up -- that's not an adult posture, that's how little kids sit.

I did get some femaleness-feelings from bits of the chapter, though: notably, Bren's little "think of the children!" appeal; that both the people he thinks of calling are female ("Barb, or even, God help him, Hanks") and he likes Jago because she's "shy" and younger than Banichi; his private concern over hygiene/sweating perceptibly; the dithering and pondering and self-reproach over the emotional expectations and feelings of those around him.

Some of which is also child-connotative, admittedly; but then, women are often infantilised by society, too, so there's overlap there, as when Bren is told to not "worry" about things, to go away and leave them to do their job uninterrupted; or when his concerns are considered irrelevant to those around him...

I'm totally going to start counting the child-inferences from now, on, too, not just the female ones. :D

TSTL, much?

Is that "Too Stupid To Live"?

I suspect for Bren that might stand for "Too Scared To Lie" by this point! Banichi's basically said that Cenedi's not out to kill him, with strong evidence; maybe any Security willing to talk to him looks like a good thing to be close to? *grin*

Banichi tells Bren that he is best when he is following his professional instinct, and Bren's instincts told him earlier not to trust Cenedi. For that matter, Bren doesn't really seem to trust Banichi 100% and one could argue he has good reason to not be 100% sure of Banichi.

Answering a mysterious summons from Cenedi at this point seems a bit like going down into the scary basement to investigate the noise when you know that there are zombies in the neighborhood, and your only available means of self defense is a hair brush. At least he's not in a bathrobe and high heels. . .

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FOREIGNER: Discussion Post #5

thoughts

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and questions

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Re: and questions

Re: and questions

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Cenedi