krait: dark-skinned alien in armour (Foreigner - security)
[personal profile] krait
If you have discussion points for Chapters 1-2 you wish to bring up but which include spoilers, please post them here. Then link your comment in the general post, so those who want to avoid being spoiled can do so!

Date: 2011-06-07 05:00 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Right now (Ch. 1 & 2) he reminds me a lot of Tully, from the Chanur books, if Tully could speak hani without a machine translator.

It also really amused me to read about Bren dressing himself and braiding his own hair, when in not that many books he's going to sit and let someone do all of that even when there's a rush for time!

Also, either Bren is wrong or Cherryh changed her mind about how prevalent Assassins would be - Bren thinks that "Banichi, unlike the majority of the aiji's guards, had a license," and ISTM from later books that unless Tabini had a lot of guards (dozens), most of them would be Assassins. On the other hand, when Tabini announces his Intent, he specifically names which Assassin he will authorize to carry out the, uh, intent, so to speak, so maybe licensing is more a matter of being someone who acts publicly as an Assassin?

Date: 2011-06-08 12:18 am (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Undoubtedly it helps the air quality that there have never been nuclear weapons detonated in it, among other things! Still, "we know better than you do what technology you should have and what your society should look like" makes me a little itchy - sure, there's no real option to let the atevi develop technology independently, since the humans are right there, but even just in human history sometimes a false start becomes really useful a few decades later, or a primarily militaristic technology has peaceful benefits. Then there's the whole "we will make the Ragi aiji totally solid and never going anywhere" thing - the East has functioned for centuries with one aiji being at best first among equals, and if it weren't for the humans wanting to get back to space ASAP that might be a better society. There's also "heretics" who believe everyone has (or should have, I'm fuzzy on the details) man'chi to everyone else and atevi society might be "better" if that viewpoint spread, even though that probably would make borders even more fluid and overlapping. (Or it might be worse - but with society forcibly centralized under a Ragi aiji, how is anyone to find out?)

Date: 2011-06-08 01:00 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
I dunno how much closer to humans they are - sure, they might feel man'chi for everyone, but I always read it more like they were humans who thought humans should feel brotherly affection for every other human - "So you have man'chi to the aiji? Even lunatics have that. I say to you, have man'chi for those who despise you and act stupidly." or something. :D

Date: 2011-06-09 02:44 am (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
But it should be an Army of Two, shouldn't it, since Assassins work in pairs? Of course, two is an infelicitous number...

We do get some hints of it in Deliverer and the two books after that, as Cajeiri's Taiben associates start preparing to learn how to be proper security staff.

What I mean about the man'chi-to-everyone thing is that as it stands right now, atevi can rationalize human behavior by saying that, okay, they don't say they feel man'chi, but they respect the treaty with Tabini-aiji and his predecessors, so that's close enough - but if atevi society did the have-man'chi-to-everyone thing, there'd be atevi trying to get humans to do, I guess, "individual treaties", rather than just being linked to the aiji, and that'd go pretty badly, since we just don't feel that emotion.

Date: 2011-06-14 09:38 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: A picture of a Metroid made to look like an engraving (engraved Metroid)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Recruitment poster idea:

some lord with one bodyguard and a dotted outline on the lord's other side - "The Guild wants YOU to make this group a felicitous number!"

Date: 2011-06-15 03:33 am (UTC)
cheyinka: A picture of a Metroid made to look like an engraving (engraved Metroid)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Me too. Though, if the cover of Foreigner had an ateva in Bren's place, one of the two atevi behind him could be turned into a dotted outline...

Date: 2011-06-13 07:43 pm (UTC)
blnchflr: Captain America Civil War (Foreigner)
From: [personal profile] blnchflr
when in not that many books he's going to sit and let someone do all of that even when there's a rush for time!
*Facepalm*!

Date: 2011-06-13 08:01 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Yeah, there's a lot of perspective changes ahead for Bren!

Date: 2011-06-08 12:09 am (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
It's been really dissonant to read after just reading the last three novels, I gotta say - he goes from baby paidhi to Lord of the Heavens and I'm pretty sure it's a nice, gradual change (having Jase around undoubtedly helped a lot) but it's still really jarring to go back to the beginning.

And, yeah, it might have been wise for him to let his Mospheiran superiors at least know that Intent was filed on his behalf, even if they did then say it was time for him to have a vacation. (Do we ever learn what Mospheira means? Is it somebody's name? Is it the atevi name of the island?)

Date: 2011-06-12 01:02 am (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
[personal profile] pebblerocker commented on the non-spoiler post that "trained linguists listening to [Ian Bretano's] first conversations would have had a better starting point than a biologist, assuming the ship had anyone interested in languages, which isn't a given."

Taylor's Children knew about the atevi, right? I know they were trained to be super-polyglots because of linguistic drift between the ship-humans and the Mospheirans, and I know in Book 2 we find out that at least part of the reason for the Guild opposing the landings was the existence of an intelligent indigenous species, but I don't know whether there were already linguists. ISTM there might not have been, meaning Ian might really have been the best suited for the job!

Date: 2011-06-13 05:47 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
That matches what I remember, yes - that it was Taylor's idea, and that Jase and the other one whose name eludes me were unusual for learning so many languages. That suggests to me that Ian was the best choice, even if it wasn't the case that he was the only one willing to take the job.

Re: continued from Post #2

Date: 2011-06-12 04:43 am (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
Wait a minute. Maybe this won't be borne out by the context of that ride with the dowager, but, is the implication that sometimes atevi do things like, "If you follow $generic_aiji, then you are one of my fellow-followers-of-$generic_aiji; if that is true then you should trust me not to do anything against $generic_aiji; thus I will try to scare the shit out of you and see what happens"?

Because if that's the case...

...was the scene with the intruder staged?

Were the aiji's guards trying to see whether Bren would trust them to defend him against an intruder? But by reacting as he did, he showed that he didn't trust them to do so, and thus, they failed at being guards?

Re: continued from Post #2

Date: 2011-06-13 05:45 pm (UTC)
cheyinka: An ateva riding a mecheita through the snow. (atevi)
From: [personal profile] cheyinka
This will be my fourth time through the first book, so it's not that I normally think that way, but something about the way you phrased the "testing" summary made something go "click!" in my head.

I'm still not sure whether I think it really was staged or not. If it was, it's a little odd that no one ever admits it and Bren never realizes it, but then again, he was so sleep-deprived that he probably doesn't remember a lot of details from that night!

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